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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

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Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 08:32

Is there a campaign to repeal the GRC?

No. I was making a point that if it's pointless, we don't need it.

MyAuntyBadger · 06/04/2018 08:33

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ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 08:34

To deny society is make women prisoners of their biology and to consign us to being brood mares and drudges.

Er what now?

So accepting that on;y women produce ova and gestate young reduces us to brood mares and drudges.

It doesn't you know.

Nice libfem argument though.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:34

@midgebabe

The 2004 GRA already has provison for same sex spaces and treatment by a practitioner of the same gender. I would be very against someone changing this.

Women's refuges: Some transgender people are also vulnerable and need refuge. They should not necessarily be assigned to a Women's refuge. It would really depend on individual cases. I wouldn't rule it out, but I would not make it a right either.

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TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 08:34

I absolutely hated changing for PE at school. We should really consider kid's needs on this one.

Most people hate this. Get real. If I had to change in front of males I would have ended up expelled as I wouldn't have done it. Ever.

I suppose that is the end game here. Infiltrate all female spaces and the women will just go home as there will be nowhere for them.

Bumblebzz · 06/04/2018 08:34

”Gender is a social construct, if you don't accept that you end up with biological determinism and women's fate being controlled by their hormones and reproductive system. You end up harming women.”

Please elaborate. How exactly will it harm women to acknowledge that (biology) which is responsible for ALL of our oppression?
Please bear in mind that that oppression - based on biology - begins before birth in some countries with the termination of pregnancies where the foetus is female, and continues through childhood into adulthood.

How?
How?

Because in case you haven’t noticed we can’t identify out of our sex, we are stuck with it, so we need to tackle the oppression that is based on it, not suppress the conversation because it’s not inclusive enough for you.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/04/2018 08:35

if you don't accept that you end up with biological determinism and women's fate being controlled by their hormones and reproductive system. You end up harming women.

Recognising the real consequences of having a female reproductive system does not harm women as the consequences can’t be avoided.

Exactly - if you ignore that women have female biological systems then you harm women.

If you declare that because they have these systems that means they have to like kittens and bunnies - that is biological determinism and harms women.

If you declare that the definition of woman is that they have female biological systems, that does nothing at all to women. It's a neutral fact. You have to add something else before it becomes determinism - ie. the social construct that is gender (eg. kittens and bunnies)

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:36

@MyAuntyBadger

The main voices in this campaign have been longstanding anti-trans campaigners.

Your deliberate misgendering of me makes me think you are one. That's been one of their/your psycological warfare tactics for a long time.

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Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 08:36

To deny society is make women prisoners of their biology and to consign us to being brood mares and drudges. And it is evidentially wrong.

There is no "us". You're never going to be a brood mare so stop appropriating women's oppression. Women are adult human females. You are male. I'm sorry it's not to your liking but it's just biological reality. Our needs are in many cases in no way the same as yours. We can work together as transsexuals and women. But don't try to tell us what our biological reality is.

TinyRick · 06/04/2018 08:38

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DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 06/04/2018 08:38

Your deliberate misgendering of me makes me think you are one. That's been one of their/your psycological warfare tactics for a long time.

DARVO... from the people who want to force me to call myself a Ciswoman (which by definition I am not) so they can linguistically shoe-horn transwomen into the set 'woman' and turn women into a subset of their own sex (I'm a computer programmer.. if there's one thing I understand it's types and sets)

rowdywoman1 · 06/04/2018 08:39

DonnaBe
It's disappointing that you say that discussing removing a child's right to consent to being undressed is telling lies and spreading fear.

It's really not - it's a truth that trans campaigners don't want discussed as it's at the heart of the difficulties. I'm afraid that's why #nodebate is used to much - to silence us - just as you have tried to do to legitimate concerns.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:39

@DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg

I don't ignore reproductive systems. They are important.

When I meet someone I know, I don't say "How's your womb?" I say "Hey nice jacket!" or "Hey, that hairdo really suits you!".

Most of the time we relate to people socially. Not biologically. It's the social presentation that maintains 99% of our interactions with other people not the biologiocal.

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merrymouse · 06/04/2018 08:39

All that is being proposed is a change to teh way you get a gender recognition certificate.

No, trans activist groups are already telling schools and associations like the guides that it is against the law to distinguish between somebody with a female body and somebody who identifies as female.

It is already unacceptable in many circles for a politician or academic to say that trans women are not women.

It is already the case that a high profile trans activist told women worried about men that they are transphobic and might as well be worried about escalators.

ReluctantCamper · 06/04/2018 08:39

yet again @DonnaBe let's hear about these anti trans campaigners. they sound awful. we don't want them here any more than you do. come on, help us out here.

by the way, using someone's correct pronoun, while in sames cases being rude, does not make an individual 'anti trans' (what ever the hell that means).

LangCleg · 06/04/2018 08:40

I think it's good to talk. But you should tell the truth. A lot of lies have been told about changes to GRA legislation. And most of them by people who have been active ant-trans campaigners for a long time.

It's all so predictable. I love how language is despoiled in one direction but used so specifically in the other. TERF didn't shut women up so y'all moved on to TRANSPHOBE. TRANSPHOBE didn't shut women up so y'all moved on to ANTI-TRANS CAMPAIGNERS. That won't work either. But I love it that y'all change epithet in synchronicity, like the Borg.

By the way, did you know that while being ANTI-TRANS CAMPAIGNERS for all those MANY YEARS before JUST RECENTLY INFILTRATING MUMSNET - we have also caused the crops to wither in the fields, the cows to stop giving milk, Brexit, and, worst of all, hypnotised lesbians (it's a bit like sissy porn but the other way around) so they won't shag you?

It's how we get our jollies.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 08:40

The 2004 GRA already has provison for same sex spaces and treatment by a practitioner of the same gender. I would be very against someone changing this.

Go and tell that to your TRA friends. Go on.

LangCleg · 06/04/2018 08:41

if you don't accept that you end up with biological determinism and women's fate being controlled by their hormones and reproductive system. You end up harming women

You do know that biological determinism means precisely the opposite of what you think it means, right? No. Didn't think so.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 08:41

That won't work either. But I love it that y'all change epithet in synchronicity, like the Borg.

Grin they really did!

Datun · 06/04/2018 08:43

OP, forgot to post link. Please read it. It will show you what we are up against.

If you don't believe girls should be forced to undress in front of boys, and that it shouldn't be a right for men identifying as women to automatically be sent to a female rape refuge, that makes you a terf.

The issues that women have are not about transsexuals. It is about quite a limited number of things.

But those things are crucial.

We are being threatened and targeted in order not to address them.

fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:44

@rowdywoman1

I'm debating. I'm listening. I just think we should all be truthful.

The way society views gender is changing. That should rightfully be discussed.

But we should all tell the truth.

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picklemepopcorn · 06/04/2018 08:45

When I talk to a woman, I don't say 'how's your womb?' either. However, I do know who to approach if I need a tampon.

You haven't answered any of my questions, and I'm not a famous anti trans campaigner.

BuggerBugger · 06/04/2018 08:45

Oh me too, every thread like this does sterling work in peaking more people. Go for it OP

Not necessarily. I'm afraid on the balance of everything I am swaying more towards the new proposals.

The OP actually chimes with a lot of my thoughts.

boatyardblues · 06/04/2018 08:46

Donna’s busy derailing another thread too, when Donna’s time would be more productively spent reading around in FWR and trying to understand our concerns. If nothing else, Donna might learn something so that Donna’s posts read less like “women, know your place!” plopping.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 08:46

@LangCleg

I hate talking at cross purposes. What do you think it means? Happy to discuss.

I'm on my own here trying to answer posts from dozens of people. And Im meant to be at work in a few minutes.

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