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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

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TheSunnySide · 06/04/2018 17:58

Sorry for not being thoughtful and articulate but I have had enough of people trying to gaslight me about female biology and the GRA. FFS.

spoonless · 06/04/2018 18:04

PencilsInSpace What is spoonless trying to say? confused

Datun I think it's that someone didn't know something, despite reading all the threads.

Yep, that's correct. I’m a little surprised it was so controversial.

Datun · 06/04/2018 18:06

spoonless

It's not controversial. The fact that you thought it was significant, is controversial.

PencilsInSpace · 06/04/2018 18:09

Oh right Confused

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/04/2018 18:09

One minute they accuse us of being a hive mind, the next they're surprised because we don't all know/think the same things Confused

ZERF · 06/04/2018 18:10

The OP does appear to follow @ManFriday and wrote this tweet.

Don't quite know what to make of her. I think she perhaps got a bit over whelmed here?

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merrymouse · 06/04/2018 18:11

What didn’t they know?

ZERF · 06/04/2018 18:12

Oops didn't mean to tag anyone called man Friday

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 18:13

Donna is one confuddled person that is for sure.

OldCrone · 06/04/2018 18:17

Pencils
I'm confused by this as well.

The poster spoonless referred to didn't realise that self-ID meant getting a GRC using self-ID. She had then been persuaded by TRAs that this meant that self-ID was not a problem, because anyone could ask to see the GRC. She hadn't realised that no-one can ask to see a GRC, so the situation is effectively anyone is the sex they say they are, which is what she thought was the case before the TRAs said she was wrong.

It's the OP here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3213408-trans-unpeak-moment

So apparently that means that we're all in a bubble and we don't know anything.

Have I got that right, spoonless?

merrymouse · 06/04/2018 18:26

That was my understanding oldcrone.

Also, in cases like the Girlguides, organisations have come to the conclusion that a GRC isn’t necessary because of the Equalities Act.

Many people are interpreting existing and proposed legislation differently. I don’t know whether that’s having taken legal advice or because of pressure from lobbying groups.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 18:34

@florafox

I didn’t even know you could do that. I signed off at 12.00 today (ish) and I only just got back home.

Not me. I’ve not been around for the last 6 hours.

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Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 18:36

Glad you're back OP. Great twitter thread btw. Very constructive.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 18:38

@pencils

Do you really want the sort of police state where everyone has to prove their gender all the time? If you make trans women prove what they are you’ll have to do it for non trans women also. Otherwise how do you know you’re not missing a trans woman?

OP posts:
spoonless · 06/04/2018 18:38

The poster spoonless referred to didn't realise that self-ID meant getting a GRC using self-ID. She had then been persuaded by TRAs that this meant that self-ID was not a problem, because anyone could ask to see the GRC. She hadn't realised that no-one can ask to see a GRC, so the situation is effectively anyone is the sex they say they are, which is what she thought was the case before the TRAs said she was wrong.

It's the OP here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3213408-trans-unpeak-moment

So apparently that means that we're all in a bubble and we don't know anything.

Have I got that right, spoonless?

No.

BudgieInABeret · 06/04/2018 18:39

Been to busy on twitter eh ?

merrymouse · 06/04/2018 18:39

Yes spoonless, but in what situation is anyone going to produce a GRC?

BudgieInABeret · 06/04/2018 18:40

Donna why can't you use the men's toilets?

merrymouse · 06/04/2018 18:41

Sorry, so that isn’t right - in that case what was the situation that they didn’t understand?

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 18:41

Do you really want the sort of police state where everyone has to prove their gender all the time? If you make trans women prove what they are you’ll have to do it for non trans women also. Otherwise how do you know you’re not missing a trans woman?

I'm A-OK with getting my "I'm an actual woman" card! Where do I sign?

Being facetious- in case some hard of thinking soul takes me at my word, as has happened before here Hmm

Datun · 06/04/2018 18:43

We want a situation where if you are not sure, you can ask.

Just like it's always been.

99.9% of the time it's obvious.

Just like it's always been.

Springnowplease · 06/04/2018 18:43

Otherwise how do you know you’re not missing a trans woman?

I have eyes.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 18:43

@terfragettecity @ZERF @merrymouse

I know exactly what #manfriday is. Though I missed the little _ on the end. Sorry!

I just happened to agree with the tweet I replied to. And wanted to make you aware of another amazing woman from the same time who has sadly been forgotten.

Anything wrong with agreeing with you about something?

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BudgieInABeret · 06/04/2018 18:44

Actually we are in a police state. Just look at Posies Parker.

OldCrone · 06/04/2018 18:47

@spoonless
So what have I got wrong?