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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 11:44

No words and ideas are not neutral or inert.
They are powerful and have effect on the WHOLE of society.

If you do not understand this, you understand little of history.
It very much effects EVERYONE in society.

No one is fighting for their lives, if you engage and listen. Some of us are trying to help whether you bloody well realise it or not.

If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the issues and the problems, then yes you COULD end up in that situation where you are fighting for your life. That won't be because of feminists and MN though. It'll because of your own blinkered attitude. I am concerned precisely because of this consequences and the implications it would have for my family.

You are part of society. You have to exist in it, and work with it. Not just tell everyone to shut up and do as they are told and to stop thinking.

IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT YOU.

ZERF · 06/04/2018 11:44

@DonnaBe

Do you think the GRC needs to change?

Why and how will this improve your life?

Many TW don't want it to change for safeguarding reasons. Women who don't want it changed also have safeguarding reasons.

What do you think about the points made in this video by a trans woman?

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=<iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/egN-9-7kTEw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen>

Teacuphiccup · 06/04/2018 11:44

I think you are.‘

How????
How is it anti trans not to support self id when so many trans people are against it too?

Do you seriously think that any man should be able to say ‘I’m a woman’ and be able to use women’s safe spaces?

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 11:46

@Fairenuff

True. And women are fighting back.

But trans people are not the enemy.

There is from my viewpoint. They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending. Who is being silenced now?

Simply stating facts and trying to deal with hundreds of very agressive replies. So I'm sorry I can't answer every of them.

OP posts:
GoodyMog · 06/04/2018 11:46

^"The thing is, trans women are always defined as the problem. The real problem is male behaviour (particularly violence and agressive sexual behaviours) in relation to women.
"^

Ok.. so why is it that men are more violent and aggressive than women?

R0wantrees · 06/04/2018 11:46

I think a great number of people within the transgender community have been fed a massive amount of propaganda by some TRAs... if you believe that women who have asked questions are 'anti-trans' and intent on eradicating the very existence of people who are transgender or that women are 'wielding baseball bats' inciting rape and murder... if you believe that women who are asking questions are right-wing , mysoginistic nazis then please go and look and where these claims originate... and yes, let's identify and challenge the lies.

Teacuphiccup · 06/04/2018 11:47

‘There is from my viewpoint. They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending. Who is being silenced now?‘

What on Earth are you talking about? There was trans people there.

GoodyMog · 06/04/2018 11:47

"They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending."

For someone who claims to not like people lying, you do a lot of it.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2018 11:48

and here we have it.... who said that trans people were banned from attending Westminster? Go and look.... lets identify and challenge the lies

Fairenuff · 06/04/2018 11:48

Donna you're starting to come across as a bit anti trans yourself.

UpstartCrow · 06/04/2018 11:48

You think everyone here is 'anti trans' and are here to re-educate us. Take the blinkers off for an hour.

Why is this campaign needed?;
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/3211564-MNHQ-here-the-impact-of-birth-on-womens-bodies-wellbeing-and-sex-lives

Why do women need Rape Crisis and Womens Aid? Come up with an answer that does not include 'but trans people'.

Stop making women do your work, do your own and ask us to be allies. Ask for your own spaces and services and we'll support you.

Datun · 06/04/2018 11:48

spoonless

There are 120 transwomen in prison. Half of whom are there for sex offences. All of whom can apply to go to the female estate.

That will double, overnight, the number of women in prison for sex offences.

There are between 10 and 14,000 men in prison for sex offences. Any of whom can identify as female and be considered for the female estate. Automatically, if they have a GRC.

Statistics matter.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 11:48

Women have been fighting for their lives since the dawn of time mate....and who have we been fighting against???

MEN.

2 women a week are killed by a current or ex male partner.

Women have been killed for the most spurious reasons, often legally, for thousands of years.

Sex based infanticide
Death by FGM
Women and girls being rounded up in droves to become chattel for violent male cults.
Women and girls being trocked and sold into sex slavery, often ending in death.

All perptrated by MEN.

Now tell me again why penises safe spaces are just fine and dandy??
Tell me howI am supposed to magically tell the difference between a man in a dress who means well, and a man in a dress who wants to hurt me??

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 11:48

They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending. Who is being silenced now?

Ffs. Lies you said? Disinformation you said?

Fairenuff · 06/04/2018 11:50

True. And women are fighting back.

But trans people are not the enemy.

So who do you think is threatening the safety of women and transwomen?

UpstartCrow · 06/04/2018 11:51

They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending. Who is being silenced now?

This is a lie.
You've posted flat out lies, now you complain the answers you get are 'aggressive?'
Report the aggressive answers to MNHQ. If they cross a line they'll get deleted.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 11:51

There is from my viewpoint. They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending. Who is being silenced now?

Trans people weren't barred from attending. Male people were asked to give up their tickets to women as it was a smaller venue than the one previously booked. Which as I am sure you are aware, transactivists harassed until they pulled out.

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 11:51

@Teacuphiccup

Because self id is irrelevant . Read my initial post. It's not what's being claimed. All it does is change the way you apply for a new birth certificate.

It's not a conspiracy. It doesn't hurt women. It probably saves the govt some money because it doesn't have to pay a Gender Recognition Panel.

It doesn't remove any legal protection for women's spaces. Nor should it.

But the lie is still being shouted out that it allows men to declare themselves women whenever they want. It doesn't.

OP posts:
titchy · 06/04/2018 11:52

You seem very certain what the proposed changes will include OP - how? No green paper yet.... in England at least.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 11:52

But trans people were banned from attending

This is the first actual lie I've seen on this thread, and it comes from the person accusing us all of lying.
Riiiigggghht

And anyway, why shouldn't women meet without men present??

Why can't we have meetings for ourselves??

Terftastic · 06/04/2018 11:52

I don't see trans women forcing themselves on lesbians in your pictures.

There is a concerted campaign online, where young trans/gay people socialise, to make lesbians feel like bigots and TERFs for not fancying penis.

You can deny it all you like - but it is happening to young lesbians now.

Here's a clicky link to a thread with a collation of tweets showing women being abused for calling themselves lesbians

It is actually upsetting - on the first, the girl is 13yrs old, and called "transmisogynistic" for having a fear of penises. This is grooming. This is online child sexual abuse.

TrollHunterGeneral · 06/04/2018 11:52

OP as you have 100s of posts to look at here are some from yetanothertranswomen these are off the first page.......

Today 08:01 yetanothertranswoman

This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice

Speaking as someone who has a GRC, who spent many years going to appointments, discussing with psychiatrists, taking HRT and having surgery - I kind if think it's important to have 'body policing' because - as far as I am concerned - being transsexual is about the body and the mind

I think it's important that a GRC involves this - as the GRA at the moment allows a transsexual to legally be seen as the aquired sex.

Today 08:05 yetanothertranswoman

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married

Did the GRA say anything else?

What did the GRA say happened legally when you got a new birth certificate?

Today 08:07 yetanothertranswoman

It's there to get your birth certificate changed. That's all

It also means you aquire the same status as the 'new sex' legally

That's quite a big thing to aquire

AlphaApple · 06/04/2018 11:53

I find it utterly insulting to say that trans people are "fighting for their lives" when hundreds of women in this country die every year at the hands of their partners. Where women in Afghanistan don't even have the right to have their own name on their grave (they are called "daughter of" or "wife of"), where female infanticide and sex selection in the womb is killing women before their lives start, where rape victims can be given the death penalty for adultery.

Can you see why women feel they aren't being listened to?

Datun · 06/04/2018 11:54

There is from my viewpoint. They even had a meeting in the House of Commons about it. But trans people were banned from attending. Who is being silenced now?

Wrong. I was there. Venice Allan has invited over 50 transwomen to speak at these meetings.

The meeting was oversubscribed so an additional meeting was held in the basement of a pub. Hosted by a transwoman.

Three transwomen spoke at A Woman's Place UK meeting in London the previous fortnight.

Honestly Donna can't help feeling that you have been the victim of swallowing a load of propaganda, that simply isn't true.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 11:55

Please report aggressive posts to MNHQ..

But no one here is being aggressive....unless you believe women shpuldn't robustly debate and defend their position??

Or unless you find facts "aggressive"???

Once again from the top.....

THE VAST, VAST MAJORITY OF AGGRESSION IN THE WORLD COMES FROM MEN.

Why are you not tackling the root cause of both feminists and trans peoples problems.....MEN????