T

[DonnaBe]

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

Harry speaks correctly there. Lots of us, including dysphoria guys didn't /don't know this. However, Harry is correct and that is where we are now.

The lie is that the proposed changes to the GRA will allow capricious self identification and give legal protection to men invading women's spaces

It's only a 'lie' because we already have this exact situation

The problem I have with the phrase:

'Transwomen are women' is that it is a thought ending cliché.

Thought is a good thing. Thought protects you and me in the long run. We have to think about unintended possible side effects to any law. If we do not, then harm can be done to the very people its supposed to protect and to other vulnerable people.

The idea that a thought ending cliché is being used by any elected member of parliament is therefore one I find very alarming.

It is such a divisive phrase. It helps to put up barriers rather than bring them down and bring about mutual understanding, because it is thought ending and discourages debate.

Transwomen can be treated like women socially in many many circumstances. But we need to understand the differences too. And actually celebrate those differences as a good thing, and something to be proud of in our identities, rather than ignoring them or denying them. Those differences mean there are situations where transwomen would be better served by specialist services and third spaces, rather than with women. And the same is true for women.

If you think this is true, you are a Terf.

It is not an extreme position. It certainly isn't a far right authoritarian one, which isn't interesting in democracy and doesn't care about harm being done to minority or vulnerable groups. To believe and celebrate the protection of Rights and the protection of Liberty is a left leaning and liberal democracy position.

We have to look to where today's decisions lead us - every boundary pushed - blurs and denies reality. It is dangerous territory.

All the trans people I know suffered dreadfully from Gender Dysphoria.... depression, anxiety, suicide attempts. Medical research (I'll find a link if I must but we can all Google) indicates gender reassignment greatly improves the mental health of GD sufferers.

I'm sorry to hear that about the transpeople you know, it must be awful to feel that. And you're right about the medical research into improved mental health in people diagnosed with GD who have had SRS. No one doubts that. I think the standard posution is that people haven't actually changed sex, but that their body now more resembles the body they feel they should have had, can alleviate the severe mental distress.

Except that you've exposed your terf status again by mentioning GD.

The current trans agenda line is that anyone who thinks that trans is about GD, or that SRS should be/is a requirement of trans status/GRC/being a 'woman' is a transphobe and a bigot.

Transwomen who have GD are named Truscum. Which I think is as offensive as terf.

Don't tell women how to define ourselves. We know what our sex is. You just compared yourself to an infertile women, but your experience is completely different.

If you want to redefine yourself, no one is trying to stop you - unless you are trying to erase another category. Look at the reaction to Rachel Dolezal identifying as black.

The lie is that the proposed changes to the GRA will allow capricious self identification and give legal protection to men invading women's spaces.

This is simply not true.

It's only not true because they are using the equality act, not the gender recognition act to intimidate women.

Most of the posts I've read claim, a priori, that trans women are men and thus are unambigously a danger t women. I think that is unfounded.

I'm sorry to say this, donna but you are just NAMALTING.

NAMALT ( not all men are like that. It's a different mechanism that male born people use when other men make them look bad.).

And of course, not all men are like that. But, statistically speaking, only men are like that.

98% of the time it's men who are a threat.

This doesn't change however they identify.

Then you've got the cross dressing fetishists who are officially transwomen.

Most of the posts I've read claim, a priori, that trans women are men and thus are unambigously a danger t women. I think that is unfounded.

In fact the evidence shows that trans identified males have the same pattern of criminality as other men. Perhaps you can provide some evidence why you think this concern is unfounded. Perhaps start by telling us how many TIM prisoners are sex offenders. Trans activists have resisted efforts by women to uncover this evidence.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

The lie is that the proposed changes to the GRA will allow capricious self identification and give legal protection to men invading women's spaces.
This is simply not true.

But it is true.

Oh god those pictures are horrific. OP can you really not understand why we don’t want people like that in our spaces?

And really, I would not regard those people as women because I’ve never seen a woman act like that.

Most of the posts I've read claim, a priori, that trans women are men and thus are unambigously a danger t women. I think that is unfounded

translesbianpositivity.tumblr.com/post/170520246550/the-tip-of-the-iceberg-please-add-to-this-list

How we define men and women in an age where gender reassignment is becoming more common is a good subject for debate.
How about we define men and women as we always have done, but you can choose whatever gender role you like.

@HarryLovesDraco

I don't see trans women forcing themselves on lesbians in your pictures.

If two people want to be together, that's up to them. If you don't want a trans bf/gf, that's entirely up to you. If you love someone, does it matter?

If you can come up with genuine cases of trans women forcing themselves on lesbians, I would love to know. And I'd probably join you in condemning them.

It not just legal protection that's the issue though. Its how the law works in practice. It means that you can not challenge those who do not have legal status to be somewhere out of fear.

The culture that has arisen out of this, is one where proportionate challenges are viewed as unacceptable and should be illegal.

The problem comes with someone who comes along to exploit that. They don't have legal status. But a woman can not say or do anything. They are not taken seriously and are treated as transphobic. If they take it to the police, or any other authority involved, they don't want to touch it or investigate because they also fear they will be labelled as transphobic and they can not legally ask for proof of legal status.

Self ID would mean you get smeared with people who take the piss. Unfortunately.

The current informal arrangement means trans people and any potential man taking the piss can be challenged to a certain degree without women fearing they are criminalising themselves for doing so or fearing that they will not have their concerns taken seriously.

@DonnaBe

But we should all tell the truth.

They tried to shut down Michfest Womyn’s Music Festival by setting up an occupation where men (“male lesbians”) slashed tires, cut water lines, terrorized women by stalking the perimeter with illegal weapons, and blanketed the festival with pictures of their dicks inscribed with the phrase “A hot load from my monstrous tranny-cock embodies womanhood more than the pieces of menstral [sic] art your transphobic cunts could ever hope to create”. Transgender “male lesbians” tried to shut down rape crisis services. They tried to shut down the Take Back The Night marches. Male transgender “lesbians”, ten years ahead of the curve of real women in internet access and organizing, formed attack groups against lesbian and feminist websites and news outlets long before most real women even knew how to get online. They attacked lesbians at Dyke Marches carrying banners stating that homosexuality is “wrong”.

THIS IS THE TRUTH. Female spaces, lesbian spaces have disappeared or gone underground because of anti-lesbian campaigners formerly know as transvestites.

And all I think now is that I want to apologise to every single lesbian for not noticing, for not knowing, for not understanding.

I do now and I will not ever shut up about it. Never.
For the first time in half a century I am ready to fight.
I don't care what you call me or how you see me.

Self id is happening. It’s not a lie.

Labour allow ANY MAN to identify as a woman and get on a woman’s only shortlist, topshop lets ANY MAN identify as a woman and use the changing room, swim England said ANY MAN can self identify as a woman and use the changing rooms and if a woman had a problem with it they should be ‘educated’. That’s what self id is, it’s any man no gatekeeping at all and if a woman has a problem with it they are transphobic.

‘Most of the posts I've read claim, a priori, that trans women are men and thus are unambigously a danger t women. I think that is unfounded.‘

No, what we are saying is that transwomen are MALE, which they are. If they weren’t then they wouldn’t be transwomen.
Studies have shown that even after transition transwomen keep the Male pattern violence and are just as likely to offend as a none transitioned Male. This is not to say all transwomen will commit a crime but why should we take the risk?

It’s misogyny as old as the hills to tell women that they have no right to have same sex spaces away from males because it hurts Male people’s feelings because they aren’t like that.

Most of the posts I've read claim, a priori, that trans women are men and thus are unambigously a danger t women

So you haven't read any posts then. Good to know.

Donna
Look at the pictures. Do you see the 'die cis scum' tattoos? Do you see the baseball bats? Do you see the 'I punch terfs' t shirt with fake blood?
I'm going to link some twitter stuff in a minute but I want you to look at those pictures and try to empathise with women who are being forced to accept those violent men into our spaces or risk violence or even death by their own admission

Donna -
you may be "genuine" but really so what? There are people out there who are not genuine and may assault women and girls. We do not want to risk our and our daughters safety just to mollify you. There seems to be this idea that "it won't happen very often" and therefore we should put up with a small number of rapes or sexual assault and harassment of our children.
As a man you may not understand this from a female perspective. For centuries women took second place and men were in charge. It is almost ingrained that women should keep quiet so the boys can get on. We have made enormous progress and women are achieving equality.
When trans people say women should just keep quiet and let the men have what they want it is to me just the same old male dominance of women. It may be in different form but seems to come from the same belief that women are somehow lesser and need to step aside so the lads can get on and do what they want.

I was born in 1967. There were still women in European countries who had no right to vote. A woman could not apply for a loan or mortgage without a male relative accompanying her and signing the form. I could go on and on. Currently only 32% of women in parliament are women.
What is happening was predicted by 1970s feminists - that women would move towards equality resulting in men pushing into our spaces to take back control.

The other issue is the accompanying agenda that calls it hate speech to "misgender" or "deadname". I've been misgendered as a woman and I'm sure other people have particularly if they aren't "feminine" women. So what?

For a long long time women would lose their name when they married and be known as Mrs husbands first name/ last name. We are still Mrs or Miss, defined in relation to our "possession" by a man.
So really don't tell us about deadnaming.

Then there's the push for us to have to state as truth that a biological man/ woman can become the opposite biological sex. That cannot happen it cannot be true. That is bad law, it will cause enormous problems. Making people state a truth when it is a lie is the ultimate oppression.

I really could go on and on. It is not "just" about toilets" or "only" about a small number of people.

Donna, you haven't answered the really important question of how you can identify the chancers/predators from the genuine transwomen? This is the crux of it for me. It has become a 'trans issue' as opposed to a male violence issue because we have always been aware of male violence but self id will remove our gate keeping. This is a new threat. And it is a bigger threat to us than it is to transwomen.

@DonnaBe

But it is not a lie. Because no one yet knows the form the legislation will take and there are loopholes created by the Equalities Act.

So, if I am in a changing room and look up to find an obviously male looking person leering at me. I tell them to leave and they tell me that they are a woman. So I complain to management who talk to the person who again claims to be a self id’d woman. Legally, non of us can ask about for for their GRC and because the GRC can be self declared it is perfectly possible this male presenting person has one. Because they are gender fluid you see.

Unfortunately, this situation is not impossible as the Swim England and Girl Guides trans inclusion guidelines show.

You seem to be very naive about just who is pushing this agenda and what is being said, by the activists (especially Mermaids). These are the people who are setting the narrative.

@DonnaBe you are ignoring all the really important questions that are being asked. This is why women feel their concerns are not being addressed.

VAWG
FGM
Sexual assaults
Safe spaces for women
Women's refuges
Sex segregation in hospitals, hospices, other care environments, including requesting female carers for female patients
All women shortlists
Sex segregation in sport

I'm a married, heterosexual woman and a parent. But I work full time (my husband is a SAHP), I have no typically "female" hobbies or interests, I powerlift, I drink pints, swear and don't remove my body hair. I probably don't conform to society's expectations of a woman but I am 100% a woman. So it's problematic to say that the definition of a woman is societal and cultural.

Biology matters because it's issues like menstruation, contraception, pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, weaker physical strength, etc. etc. that is at the heart of women's inequality. It's what drives the socialisation of women.

Oh, and DH knits, sews, loves to cook and always makes sure our house has fresh flowers. He's 100% man.

@OldCrone

Things haven't changed for women.

If you can come up with genuine cases of trans women forcing themselves on lesbians, I would love to know

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/