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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigal · 09/04/2018 15:08

I tell my daughter to question everything. Don't just take it at face value. I'm doing a bit of that here I suppose to also challenge myself.

Credit posters here that they have done this before taking the positions that they do.

RatRolyPoly · 09/04/2018 15:12

So if we're nice and those who disagree with us don't want to be nice, what happens then?

You come out of it looking better? I don't know, I've never lost an argument by being nice. I've never lost at my sport by showing good sportsmanship. I've never failed to win respect when staying calm and respectful in the face of bullies.

What's wrong with being nice?

I don't like the idea that a feminist might feel she has to abandon what might be seen as a feminine characteristic ("niceness") to get ahead. In the feminist future I imagine everyone will give niceness the respect it deserves and value it as a strength.

And for now I don't think one loses anything by being nice.

Sunflowersforever · 09/04/2018 15:12

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to my original thread. It's been interesting, thought provoking, and sometimes bizarre. I haven't read all the thread as .... well, it did go off on some tangents.

There are about 75 post opportunities left before the thread closes. I'm not posting anymore as I've exhausted myself for now.

For those using up the remaining 75 spaces, maybe use it to say something new or suggest how bridges can be built with the others.

Happy Monday

OP posts:
TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 09/04/2018 15:20

The thing is, what does 'nice' mean in this context? What if being nice about letting self-iding males become legally women without checks or balances leads to an increase in sex offences against little girls? That's not very nice.

This is a situation in which one group's rights have to be prioritised over another group's. There is no 'nice' solution, only a solution that minimises harm.

RatRolyPoly · 09/04/2018 15:29

That a good point Tallulah about what nice means in this context.

There is no 'nice' solution, only a solution that minimises harm.

I think we have to accept that there is the perception of harm on both sides. To me, one "nice" thing for each side to do is to first concede the points which don't result in real harm. So TRAs, stop making a fuss over vagina symbolism being "exclusionary". And equally us women, it might be worth acknowledging that biologically inaccurate pronouns don't erase our female experience.

CharlieParley · 09/04/2018 16:16

Shame you're leaving the thread Sunflowersforever I really hoped to hear from you as to whether we helped at all in answering your questions.

------------------

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

-------------

This is what you asked to start this thread and I really wanted to know - since we did reply, not just with our opinions but with actual facts such as

-that the actual government proposal for instance goes beyond what you describe (ie sex-based exemptions to be abolished)
-that self-id confers all of the rights and protections of the other sex
-that it is illegal to ask anyone for proof they have reassigned their gender
-that self-id has caused problems in other countries

Do you accept that what you read on HFs Twitter feed was incorrect in that it did not tell you the whole story and/or misrepresented the facts?

I understand you worry about being sure in this debate and about being nice. I do too, but feelings are not enough for me, I need evidence.

We have evidence why women need single-sex provisions (not just spaces).
We have evidence that the GRA has provided the desired protection for transsexuals.
We have evidence that the UK is now one of the safest places in the world to be trans when it comes to discrimination, access to medical treatment and physical/sexual violence.
We have evidence that non-op, non-med transwomen pose the same risk to women as any other man.
We have evidence that the current trans activist ideology is harming women including to the point of female erasure when it comes to reproductive issues (pregnant people, breastfeeding parent, vagina feminism etc).

So can you understand women's concerns around self-id better now or have we made it worse with this thread?

crispybuttyfan has tried to explain their viewpoint to us, valiantly defended an innate gender identity and shared the angst that the wider trans community feels. And I thank them for staying around and doing so. The explanations around being trans and why the transsexuals are wrong seemed mostly philosophical to me though and the most important questions remained unanswered:

Are any single-sex provisions acceptable to crispy?

Why should fully functioning males - including those who feel female only intermittently - gain all the rights of women?

Can you understand women's concerns? (Not agree with, but understand?)

Do you have empathy for those of us who are traumatised by male violence and need female-only anything?

Which rights do you lose in the UK when you come out as trans?

Do you accept other people have rights too?

Do trans rights supersede other people's rights?


P.S. Thanks for starting this thread <strong>Sunflowersforever</strong> it's been interesting. And thanks to all the posters, I learned a lot!
flowersonthepiano · 09/04/2018 16:16

Yes, sorry, by ‘nice’ I didn’t mean polite or respectful. Of course we should be polite and respectful.

I meant, nice as in, “no, it’s fine really, you have it”. Then regretting it later. There is a limit to generosity.

If you’re too nice, you end up as a doormat.

yetanothertranswoman · 09/04/2018 16:24

There was an interesting comment upthread about transsexuals wanting to retain the 'binary differences of gender expression'.

I can sort of see that - but I think an explanation of how I see myself as a transsexual and how I need to be seen would put things into context.
This is personal - and I don't know how other transsexual people feel. I have heard similar comments - and I haven't heard transgender people say this.

I don't want to be seen as male. When I walk down the street, I don't want to be seen as male. If a stranger calls me 'she' just in conversation, then I feel that I have managed to be seen as female, even at a glance and even when I am not wearing 'stereotypical' clothes. I just want to blend in, not stand out and have made as much effort with my face and body to blend in. Standing out makes you a target.

I look at my body and the effects of HRT and surgery and it's such a relief. The dysphoria was causing me to self harm and had really fucked up my life, how I saw myself and how I lived my life. It affected my perception of myself, my self confidence, my so called career, relationships, everything.

Realising what was going on changed everything. It just made sense. I was just able to be myself and was able to alter myself physically and to express myself.

It's not about the clothes - but people think it is. Society does place massive restrictions though on men and what they wear.

Do I wear stereotypically female clothes? No. Not really. I rarely wear a dress - and part of me doesn't do that because I fear I would stand out and become a target. A target from many people who have issues with trans people. I avoid clothes that are stereotypically male - I fear that would make people think I was male.

So I just wear clothes so people look at me, look at the face, the body and think female. At least at a glance. I don't want to stand out. Altering the body, having HRT and surgery has made such a difference to me and I am a different person. I don't know what they future brings but it's a future I am glad I have. I just wish I had done it earlier.

I don't know what it feels to be transgender. But I do know that this is what being transsexual is like.

flowersonthepiano · 09/04/2018 16:24

Thanks Charley good summary. Yes, it was good that crisp stuck around.

Jayceedove · 09/04/2018 16:35

Crispbutty, I don't think we are as far apart as you seem to think.

You are arguing that most trans people see things differently from me. I can see that a lot are, but wonder why. And from posts from other transsexuals on here and others who have PMd me I know there are others who think this.

Is it a generational thing that todays focus on gender identity versus body dysmorphia causes the shift? Could be, It does seem that most who share my take on this are older and most who don't are younger. So that could be a pattern.

The more obvious pattern is the numbers. There is clearly a very consistent group of people who for decades have been going to seek medical help to alter their bodies to match what they feel they should be. That was in the (at most) couple of hundreds in the 1970s (90 UK ops in the year I had my surgery at the one main hospital at most double that taking private clinics and trips abroad into account).

And this is at remarkably similar levels four decades later. 143 operations in 2009. 865 in the decade 2000 - 2009.

These are mostly the ones getting GRCs even though surgery is not required and never has been. Because for them it is the culmination of a medical journey even without surgery.

The GRC figures over the past few years have consistently been in the 200s and 300s.

What you see here is no trace at all of a sudden increase or change in pattern. There is a very clear consistency.

The number of people who have a GRC today is almost exactly what parliament was told would be the approximate number 14 years ago. And why they passed it into law.

Because of modest numbers. Because of gatekeeping. Because of medical assessment even when no surgery occurred, as it most often did.

This has all the signs of a small consistent phenomenon of whatever origin that has risen slightly more or less in line with population increase but as an overall percentage of the population is remarkably stable and was predictable up front to parliament by doctors.

Whatever else transsexualism is you cannot suggest from this data that it has been radically influenced by changes in society or the widespread debate. It is what it is and what it always seemingly has been and is not being shifted up or down by any arguments about gender identity or the push for self ID.

What has clearly changed are the numbers who see the concept of changing gender very differently, often more loosely, and even with no interest or desire to change their body much of at all.

It is from here that the 5000 has suddenly become half a million wanting to be legally recognised. It is from here that the insistence not to need to be assessed or for any safeguards to be retained. It is not from transsexuals, who are still out there going the same route we always have by the looks of things.

Now whether these are two different things or two different degrees of the same thing or two different commitment levels to what they wish to do to gain legal status - does not really matter.

There is a difference, plain as day. And it is that difference of commitment level and willingness to compromise and care for how this transition impacts on the rest of society that is really the issue for most women on here.

Even if these were all one conflated 'trans' thingy, as I expect you think, and as it might even be (though I am not convinced I must admit) what matters is just one thing.

Women rightly want some protection. Some evidence of mental stability. Some sign of commitment. Some indication of willingness to compromise and recognise safe spaces. Something that says - we know we are asking a lot here, but we are perfectly happy to prove our responsibility towards you and our commitment.

I don't think this is about surgery at all. I am certainly not arguing surgery must be a necessity. It has not been for 14 years anyway.

So clearly that is not why the 595,000 who want a GRC don't have one. Because they could go get one without surgery today.

Something else is going on here and that looks to be the 'this is not a medical matter' argument.

Now let's say that were even true. For all I know it is. The point is that women suspect, I think with good reason, that sometimes it IS a medical or psychiatric concern that is manifesting as being transgender. Not all the time. Probably not even most of the time. But potentially some of the time.

And one time is too much of a risk. For them, and, in my view, the trans person who might benefit from other ways of dealing with that. Either instead of transitioning. Or before they do transition to make that process easier for all.

So why is there an apparent need to remove this entirely? Even if it is just a precaution and you are given the all clear.

It is like saying if I want to go on a trek down the Amazon, well I am really healthy and it costs £100 to get injections. I will take the chance. My choice.

Until you go, get some infectious disease you could have been inoculated against and spread that to others when you get back.

Sometimes if you want something badly enough and others express their concerns as to how it might effect them it seems not unreasonable to be willing to do something you might personally think is a bit of a palaver to reassure those you should care about.

If you do, you get what you want, they get reassurance, and all it costs you is a bit of time, a trip to the doctors and a few quid.

If you don't, then it is easy to see why many people might regard you as being selfish, or afraid.

Yet, there is

If transsexuals and the broasder

crispbuttyfan · 09/04/2018 16:40

Charley, the evidence for most of those positions against trans people are simply propaganda. You're claiming evidence that equality act, harms women. Almost all 'evidence to back up numerous of your assertions, comes from a handfull of anti-trans sites or wordpress blogs.
You claimed 'female erasure happens because of words' then paint all arguments you disagree with as philosophical....

Like I already said, It is the anti-trans ideology that turns the lived experiences of trans people into thought exercises.

Do I understand why some women have concerns about sex-segregated spaces, of course I do, and it seems obvious those are fuelled by disingenuous anti-trans arguments.
As we have established, such as the claim self-id GRA, affects a totally different set of laws such as the equality act, and a grc is required to enter the facilities that match a trans persons identity, and ancient debunked nonsense about agp etc.
It is explicitly implied that self-id will give trans people sudden new laws to access new spaces, when in fact they have existed for the best part of a decade.

Do you understand why many cis-women equally support trans rights? Even cis women who support trans rights are attacked and called handmaidens, or it is implied they are too stupid or uninformed and eventually they will peak trans. Various cis women on twitter have spoken up about the dogpiling from trans exclusionary rad-fems, as soon as they share anything supportive of trans rights.

I have totally empathy for both cis women, and trans women who suffer male violence, I know two truly trans allys involved with DV centres.

It takes a certain worldview for somebody to spend their time attacking trans people and blaming trans women for the violence suffered at the hands of cis men, rather than spend that time dealing with cis men. Which is the angle most anti-trans propaganda sites such as fairplay for women, and 4thwavenow etc advocate. Neither of these sites does anything for women in any avenue that does not involve misrepresenting trans people.

Arguing that trans rights puts women in more danger is not borne out of evidence.

It is borne out of fears and projection of what 'could' happen but doesn't, set up by those desperate to curtail trans rights.

Jayceedove · 09/04/2018 16:41

Ignore the last two lines. Forgot you cannot edit out!

Teacuphiccup · 09/04/2018 16:43

There you go with the anti trans stuff again.

Maybe we should just start saying you’re ‘anti woman’ and see how helpful that is.

yetanothertranswoman · 09/04/2018 16:44

crispybuttyfan

If self ID does not go through, what do you think the outcome will be for those trans people who currently don't want to get a GRC?

crispbuttyfan · 09/04/2018 16:51

Jaycee my reading of what you are missing in this discussion to do with other trans identities, mostly comes from the natural diversity of opinions and experiences.
And like gender can be made up of a chain of different nuanced types, such as, expression, identity etc

So too is dysphoria, some trans people have extreme genital dysphoria, some trans people have less genital dysphoria and more social dysphoria.

I disagree that gender identity is ever a medical or psychiatric concern, but trans people do suffer related psychiatric problems of depression anxiety etc due to the stigma and treatment of trans people.

I heard a trans woman this morning who went through town and was minding her own business and was spat on in public, of course that kind of treatment is going to mess with anybody's head.

You are entrenched in this view that some people are more trans than others, or a sanctimonious view that trans people as autonomous humans should be told what hoops to jump through etc. As I have said I disagree with you.

When we have actual male and female paedophiles and sex attackers who exist and are free to use any facilities of their natal sex as a matter of course, it seems entirely disingenuous to suggest stopping trans rights suddenly makes anyone safer.

Jayceedove · 09/04/2018 16:52

Crispy I think the point is it is not about scaremongering, but perceptions.

Women rightly fear the erosion of these spaces because of a huge rise in numbers. They are not necessarily (probably many are not) drawing distinctions between those who say they are transsexual and those who say they are expressing gender identity.

Nor am I. I do not know or care if these are different things. I certainly have no desire to stop anyone who says they are trans from getting these rights if that is what they want.

I simply argue that the checks and balances we have do offer a degree of reassurance which is reasonable to provide because enough women are asking for it. And I think it is a fair argument.

Especially in situations involving biology. Which is why I accept and would continue the restrictions on things like medical treatment and refuges as sex controlled spaces matter to some people and it is not bigotry for some woman who feels that way to object.

So those are no go area for me and GRC or not is irrelevant there.

I keep coming back to it but it is the truth. It is all about trust.

Anyone trans is asking a huge thing from society to be allowed to live entirely within as one gender, especial when they appear to be the other, and always in some regards will be.

It should not be a human right to just declare that if enough people object. A law has to be balanced and proportionate.

I am not at all against anyone who wants to change gender from legally doing so.

All who do are welcome to go for it.

I am opposed to making it too easy that 'changing sex' becomes almost like 'changing socks'.

It is too big a deal and involves too many other people not to require just a little more commitment than that in return for trust.

crispbuttyfan · 09/04/2018 16:54

teacup, antitrans attitudes exist, of course they do, why would you even try to claim they don't?

I have been very clear, not all cis women who are voicing concerns are anti-trans, but they are sometimes repeating the same rhetoric from voices who are explicitly anti trans.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 09/04/2018 16:55

@crispbuttyfan
Mon 09-Apr-18 16:40:40
This post is simply a non stop repetition of the words anti trans.

Teacuphiccup · 09/04/2018 16:56

crispy I would be stunned to my core if any poster on here would condone spitting on a trans woman.

when we have actual Male and female sex offenders and peadophiles

Well this is a bit disingenuous isn’t it, the vast vast majority of offenders are Male, that’s why we have sex segregated spaces in the first place.

Teacuphiccup · 09/04/2018 16:59

I’m not claiming anti trans attitudes don’t exist, I’m saying that you claiming that all evidence that self id may harm women is anti trans is unhelpful

crispbuttyfan · 09/04/2018 17:00

Teacup I didnt say anyone was condoning the spitting.

And of course I agree the vast majority of perpetrators are men, but womens prisons are not a figment of anyones imagination...
I assume some women on here have sons who use male facilities.... who could encounter such men.
There is no great outcry or crowdfunders set up to deal with that?

But it is acceptable to go after trans women, and I accept many people will never see trans women as anything other than male, but perceptions don't make laws, facts and evidence do, which is why the equality act was passed in 2010.

0phelia · 09/04/2018 17:01

It takes a certain type of someone to spend all their time attacking feminists who recognise sexual dimorphism rather than spending time on actual transphobia comitted by males against other Transgender males because male violence is the problem that Transgender males will never own up to.

LangCleg · 09/04/2018 17:03

crispy - what you seem to be missing is that individual gender expression and freedom from imposed stereotypes is a central tenet of radical feminism. Feminists simply don't believe that transgressive gender expression or internal identity (aka personality) is evidence of a gendered soul or the mutability of sexual dimorphism. No feminist would do anything other than condemn bullying or violence based on gender presentation.

Jayceedove · 09/04/2018 17:04

Crispy, I am emphatically NOT saying that some are more trans than others. Not at all.

I might suspect, as I do, that there are different versions of dysphoria and you have just yourself stated that.

These might relate to different causes that trigger the gender problems. Or they might just be entirely individual. I don't know.

But at heart IF you feel you are one thing and your body conclusively shows that you are the other that IS something that I would characterise as a medical anomaly.

Physical, biological, psychological, cultural, we do not know the hows and whys.

But we are talking huge discrepancy between one and the other and it is basically either a problem of the body or a problem of the mind.

It might even be a natural part of humanity and that might be established in due course. But as we know that there are examples of both physical and psychological causes that can trigger gender dysphoria then I cannot see any reasonable argument that these should not be the first things that need to be looked at.

You risk your own well being and that of others by just presuming it is 'one of those things' that you reckon you are not what your body says you are. Even if that is exactly what is happening.

Because it might not be. And how will we ever know what actually causes this anyway if we just presume there is no medical factor and eliminate any research into looking for cause.

I was cured of my dysphoria many, many years ago. Whether the GRA exists or is widened or is scrapped will not effect my life personally much, other than feeling like some women on here do a little trepidation as to where this free for all might be heading.

But I would really like to know why my childhood was made hell by all of this and hope we can find a way to at least give a choice to others to be cured of it - IF they chose that rather that to still transition as the cure.

Either way you do not understand what us behind what surely anyone can see is something of an anomaly by ruling out involvement from the people most suited to seeking answers.

PencilsInSpace · 09/04/2018 17:05

For anybody who would like to judge for themself:

Fair Play for Women

4th Wave Now