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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
thebewilderness · 08/04/2018 19:17

School. Activities. Clubs. Drivers License. School. Job application. Security clearance. Drivers license again. Passport.
That's just off the top of my head. Once you use your BC to get a DL or passport most places only need a current DL or passport.
We are adults. We know.

thebewilderness · 08/04/2018 19:19

Maybe you should google "This Never Happens".

CharlieParley · 08/04/2018 19:24

I wonder about your reading comprehension crispbuttyfan. Jaycee did not say a GRC was required to enter female spaces. She elucidated in some detail and with a lot of clarity that the GRA was intended for a tiny number of people - transsexuals like her to be precise - and that she has concerns about giving rights to a huge number of people who are not transsexual. And she asked you a lot of questions you sidestepped with your insult and strawman.

And since you do not understand the law: Single-sex spaces exist. Even with a GRC people can be excluded from single-sex spaces if an organisation has a good reason to do so. That many organisations do not understand and apply the exemptions does not mean they do not exist.
These are just a few examples where exemptions can be applied

School toilets
Prisons
Hospital wards
Open changing rooms and showers without cubicles
Single-sex holidays
Single-sex swim groups
Single-sex research
Rape crisis centre
Refuges

picklemepopcorn · 08/04/2018 19:25

How does it with DBS checks? That's one of the irritating times I need to get out all sorts of documents.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 19:26

bewilderness, you took a birth certificate to school? to a job application?
regardless, none of those things cover public facilities?

picklemepopcorn · 08/04/2018 19:26

I think crispbutty has effectively derailed us from the OP enough for me. I'm out.

flowersonthepiano · 08/04/2018 19:29

Why does a person who retains their natal sex and doesn't wish to change it need to access facilities for the opposite sex anyway?

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 19:30

Charley, yes they are examples of when exemptions can be used, what is required is substantial evidence it is proportional to use that exemption, and no other means to achieve the same aim are available.

Not simply that these exemptions are executable at will. There are very few situations where the case law has set a precedent that those exemptions have been permissable.

OldCrone · 08/04/2018 19:31

crispbuttyfan
Because it WAS sophistry, it was a false argument based on a false premise that a GRC was required for a trans woman to enter female spaces, which has never been the case, and the opposite was enshrined in law in 2010.

According to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, there is a difference between how someone with a GRC is treated compared to someone without:

Where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from someone of their preferred gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender unless there are strong reasons not to do so

Where someone has a gender recognition certificate they should be treated in their acquired gender for all purposes and therefore should not be excluded from single sex services.

On p.17 of the linked document.

Without a GRC they have to be 'indistinguishable' from someone of their preferred gender.

With it, a TIM can be indistinguishable from any other man, and still be legally allowed into a woman-only space.

That's my interpretation of the legal situation, but I am not a lawyer.

If my reading is correct, then self-ID is a lot more than just a way to get a new birth certificate.

CharlieParley · 08/04/2018 19:32

picklemepopcorn I just thought the same when I saw crispbuttyfan roll out the tired old "this never happens". Discussing this with someone who is genuine is absolutely worth my time (especially given that I was a lurker for a decade and learned loads just from reading threads). Discussing this with a TRA who answers no questions, insults people and argues in bad faith - not worth it.

And thanks for the reminder Tallulah Flowers
WTGLWGH
Good night everyone

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/04/2018 19:35

Why does a person who retains their natal sex and doesn't wish to change it need to access facilities for the opposite sex anyway?

This is the flaw in the argument isn't it ... and why they don't want us talking about sex.

A solution I'd personally be happy with would involve male transsexuals being honorarily recognised as legal women, subject to some tightened-up conditions and retaining the current sex-based exemptions, while transgender people had their gender expression protected but remained legally (and for the purposes of sex-segregated spaces) their birth sex.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 19:40

old crone, indistinguishable as far as I'm aware is not the wording anywhere in the equality act like it is referenced in that guidance, i think the wording may be a red-herring.
other guidance says, for instance...

The Equality Act 2010 says that you must not be discriminated against because you are transsexual - that is your gender identity differs from the gender assigned to you at birth.

For example a person who was born female decides to spend the rest of his life as a man.
In the Equality Act it is known as gender reassignment. All transsexual people share the common characteristic of gender reassignment.

To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one. You can be at any stage in the transition process – from proposing to reassign your gender, to undergoing a process to reassign your gender, or having completed it.

The Equality Act says that you must not be discriminated against because:

Of your gender reassignment as a transsexual. You may prefer the description transgender person or trans male or female. A wide range of people are included in the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ but you are not protected as transgender unless you propose to change your gender or have done so. For example, a group of men on a stag do who put on fancy dress as women are turned away from a restaurant. They are not transsexual so not protected from discrimination.

CisPinkhoodie · 08/04/2018 19:42

Why does a person who retains their natal sex and doesn't wish to change it need to access facilities for the opposite sex anyway?

Yes, why?

NotAgainYoda · 08/04/2018 19:48

crispbutty

That is sooo woolly it's almost bleating Grin

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 19:51

A wide range of people are included in the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ but you are not protected as transgender unless you propose to change your gender or have done so. For example, a group of men on a stag do who put on fancy dress as women are turned away from a restaurant. They are not transsexual so not protected from discrimination.

That was all well and good in 2010. I predict it will get harder and harder to draw that line. How exactly is a restaurant supposed to know that it's not a group of trans identified males?

Jayceedove · 08/04/2018 19:52

Thank you for replying Crispy and I appreciate your points.

Yes, it is right that a GRC is not necessary to enter a toilet or a changing room. It is not even illegal for a man to do. The illegality is in any action taken. It is in of itself not a passport into such spaces, as such.

However, it acts as a measure of trust and a marker of recognition that you are not just sneaking in but have made an effort to comply with the concerns of women over the privacy of such spaces.

Just saying we don't need one anyway gives no indication of concern and, as trans people asking support of women, we should be aware of their feelings and so making an effort counts.

However, what a GRC is can be a recognition of change of legal status. If you have one, you are protected. There are exceptions - rightly so - such as refuge spaces - but a GRC will be interpreted broadly in any dispute as a protection of that person's gender/sex in many circumstances. It is much a memo to yourself to say - I have legitimacy, but I also have limits to respect.

You may argue this is almost of no value in practical terms. And given how few of those who say they are trans but have decided getting one is currently too much hassle or intrusive or expensive to bother have attained one then that seems true.

Outside of those of us 5000 or so who clearly did not.

So this begs the question why change the law to access one then if right now it is too hard to bother? You either want one because it matters or you don't want one.

Wanting one only when it is basically handed over free for just asking will not create any sense of trust or mutual respect.

The real value in my eyes of a GRC is a token of mutual trust and understanding between the holders of one those people we ask to accept us amongst them.

They are rather less likely to do so if you are not prepared to make any effort to get one and will only bother applying if it is easy.

If, as you argue, access to spaces are not contingent on having one, then why do so many want one anyhow?

You answer this I think by explaining you need a GRC to access a new birth certificate.You do. But a birth certificate is a statement of medical reality at birth. It cannot, self evidently, be a gender certificate as no doctor can know the gender identity of a baby if that differs from sex.

So a birth certificate expresses a literal position at birth. Which, incidentally, is why - even if you are one of the tiny number of people in the UK to have had theirs changed - would know as I do that the one showing your position at birth is NOT removed from record.

The altered one is a copy for purposes of convenient use and a degree of protection of amended sex status in day to day circumstances.

It only exists because sex is legally altered by a GRC. So the GRC gatekeeps the issuance of these and has meant only a small number have ever happened.

Partly, as I understand because a birth certificate is to a degree a medical document and altering it has always needed medical approval. That is how it happens via the GRC. The medical safeguards built into the act provide a degree of justification for such a change of a key document.

I suspect most people would have no argument with documentation that allows anyone self declaring to live unhindered by bureaucracy or oppression and to be able to operate day to day with paperwork that makes that possible - passport, driving licence etc.

But that they will (and in my view rightly) feel that a medical document about birth should not be replaced without any input at all from doctors that there is a legitimate basis for that alteration.

There is bound to be more argument over whether any trans people should be allowed to get a new birth certificate. Indeed I was stunned that it was possible for me.

I never asked for it or expected it. However, I took it on the basis that I had to supply two sets of medical evidence on both testing and diagnosis of gender dysphoria and on significant medical intervention to amend my body.

Even that will likely not be considered valid grounds to many people. My brother, who I love dearly, and has been a huge rock over the past 50 years in my life and been 100% behind me always, is adamant he thinks that I should not have been allowed to have got this altered.

I would not call him a bigot in a million years for that opinion. This is a valid viewpoint that I totally understand.

It is bound to get even more tricky with cases of no surgical intervention at all. There are a few even today - but again all are still filtered through medical assessment and evidence to give some degree of legitimacy to this alteration.

To go past that to remove any medical basis for changing a birth record and just saying that it was wrong is in some ways just another step on the same route I can see. And might even be acceptable to society if there was a proper debate not a demand.

My view is and I think so will that of a lot of people be that any change to this document ought not to happen without some input from doctors.

I think it is a totally reasonable thing to ask of someone wishing to alter a document of such moment about their physical reality to not see it as intrusive to explain why it was incorrect and be assessed just in case there are reasons not conducive with doing that.

There will be some cases where, in the interests of both the well being of that person and, more importantly, the concerns of wider society, issuing a changed certificate might be wrong.

It needs proper reasons to do so in my view. Not just a request.

in essence I am perfectly fine with self expression of gender and making it cheaper, easier and even assessment free to get basic acknowledgement that a person has declared they intend to live in a different gender role. And that in day to day life be regarded as such.

But when it comes to any situation where legal status is important - as in treatment by the law, recognition under crime statistics, access to sex segregated spaces, participation in sports, or other things where your body and its physical make up are in any way relevant to the way this would impact on the rest of society, then in those circumstances self declaration alone is not enough.

The safeguards in the GRA are there for good reason and help protect some of the above things.

Otherwise if it becomes a free for all to just say you are what you are, then GRCs and birth certificates become meaningless as they essentially are like a piece of paper you can write on a card and hold up saying - 'I am now a woman.'

Legal documents require sensible filters before they are drawn up.

Society deserves to get a little more confidence and security in exchange for considering the fundamental change of status in any single person. Let alone hundreds of thousands.

Trust is a two way street where both parties are willing to give and take to reach an accommodation.

If it becomes a declaration, then, whilst most people will use this wisely and do so for sincere motives, there are bound to be openings for hucksters, charlatans and others with nefarious purposes.

And without question unforeseen consequences will emerge from such a law that will only appear after such a drastic free for all is created.

Then we will all see them when it is too late.

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 19:52

crispbuttyfan

A wide range of people are included in the terms ‘trans’ or ‘transgender’ but you are not protected as transgender unless you propose to change your gender or have done so

I have had HRT, been diagnosed, been to see 2 psychiatrists and had surgery.

Personally, I think I have proved myself to be transsexual. I
do think that people should not have an automatic right to enter such places such as changing rooms unless they are at a certain stage.

What's going to happen is that single sex places are going to clamp down on all this and this will affect those transsexuals who have been through the process because a GRC will become worthless if anyone can self ID.

I know some trans people don't like this view - the so called trans hierarchy - but my GRC proves my journey.

LostArt · 08/04/2018 20:16

School. Activities. Clubs. Drivers License. School. Job application. Security clearance. Drivers license again. Passport.
That's just off the top of my head. Once you use your BC to get a DL or passport most places only need a current DL or passport.
We are adults. We know.

Yes, we know.

I wonder also how many males have some sort of official female id, outside the of the few thousand who have a GRC. I wonder if the government know?

thebewilderness · 08/04/2018 20:23

Transgender identified males often claim to have ID stating they are female. However, on the internet no one knows if you are a potato. There is such a ting as fake ID easy to come by in the photoshop age.

lunamoth581 · 08/04/2018 20:26

*Charley, yes they are examples of when exemptions can be used, what is required is substantial evidence it is proportional to use that exemption, and no other means to achieve the same aim are available.

Not simply that these exemptions are executable at will. There are very few situations where the case law has set a precedent that those exemptions have been permissable.*

Just to see where you are coming from on this, crispbuttyfan, do you think that there are any situations in which the exemption for a single-sex space should apply? If so, what, in your opinion would those situations or places be? Do you think the list of single-sex spaces CharlieParley posted is reasonable?

OldCrone · 08/04/2018 20:31

crispbuttyfan

Section 13.59 of Equality Act 2010 Code of Practice - Services, public functions and associations Statutory Code of Practice
Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary

and section 2.26
The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) provides that where a person holds a gender recognition certificate they must be treated according to their acquired gender

This is the official guidance for service providers on how to apply the Equality Act 2010. It is not a 'red herring'. A clear distinction is made in the guidance as to how people with and without a GRC are to be treated.

LostArt · 08/04/2018 20:38

thebewilderness, I do think a lot of this id is a blockbuster card with a F written on with biro.

I also wonder what use female id is to someone who looks obviously male, surely it would cause more suspicion and more problems for the person.

thebewilderness · 08/04/2018 20:49

Male bodied person with female ID gained entry to a women's shelter, is the first one that comes to mind, LostArt.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 21:22

yetanother.. we entirely disagree on the vast amount of what you asserted, you are entitled to your view, I disagree with the distinctions you make and in my mind comes down to purity test.

Simply saying those who for instance, cannot afford to go through the GRC process, simply aren't trans enough, or want one enough, doesn't really fly with me.

I see your point of view and reading of the current situations, and I understand the place you are coming from, but we have entirely different viewpoints on many things.

@Old crone,
yes it's true those with a grc are treated as their acquired gender, and the burden of proof to execute exemptions would likely be harder to build for those with a grc.
However the equality act says to be protected from gender re-assignment the person does not have to undertake specific treatment.
Without treatment it is impossible to obtain a grc, so a grc is still not required to be a protected characteristic.

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 21:27

Simply saying those who for instance, cannot afford to go through the GRC process, simply aren't trans enough, or want one enough, doesn't really fly with me.

Why? It doesn't cost a fortune. There isn't any other reasonable objection that I can see. Why are you so against the idea of gatekeeping?