Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

I disagree the trans community are doing the conflating.

Erm, go and check any pro trans groups definition of transwoman/transgender in that case? Stonewall for sure do this, and appear to have been the first to join fetishists and transsexuqal people together in harmony. Which is really..the problem. That both are classed as the same and both equally needing of using womens spaces for gods sake. Yes, post op transsexual people have need of female space. A bloke who likes to wear a leather miniskirt on a friday? Nope nope nope.

Crispy "by conflating cis men, with paraphillia's, and trans women with gender dysphoria as so many transphobes insist on doing, is clear evidence of an attempt to conflate and obfuscate the truth"

Stonewall, the LGBT charity, is conflating ALL in the trans umbrella. They include transvestites or cross dressers. There is no difference. And self Id WILL enshrine in law all who self Id as women. Now can you see why we are worried. Can you see why transsexuals are worried too about self id. Can you now see why we are not transphobic?

But when I am discussing the situations I have there needs to be a definition to separate trans women from cis women, as I'm sure your also aware there are many differences as well as similarities in experiences, but for the sake of discussion lets separate them into two separate groups of women, using fairly well established language almost everywhere outside this forum, such as trans and cis.

What's wrong with

Transwomen
And
Women
?

@yet

Or maybe the dysphoria has always been there but it was suppressed too much and finally came out

Yes I can sort of see that, but if someone had intense dysphoria wouldn't they struggle to have physical relationships? Or is it more that the dysphoria is less loathing of the body, and more a need to be treated socially as a member of the opposite sex?

@notterfnotcis
This is a very interesting question, and also partly why Blanchard's quackery attacks late transitioners.

Late transitioner's are very likely to have suffered gender dysphoria their whole life, but there was more stigma and difficulty to transitioning in the past, there was not the medical facilities, knowledge of treatment etc etc

But crucially, what also seems to group together a lot of late transitioners, is that they are mostly attracted to women, and as you say sometimes have children.

So these 'men' who present as men, and can't deal with their gender dysphoria, are in a position of being attracted to females, and so try to live through a normal cis-het relationship, often in the past without understanding gender dysphoria, and even pyschologists wrongly believing it to be transient, many of these men simply tried to live normal lives and outrun the 'dysphoris' until later in life, they realise, usually in a pit of depression something has to change, and the inner identity is fighting to come out, nowadays we have help, and gender clinics, and older generations are now making use of that.

As younger people get access to treatment they dont have to go through the misery and depression any more, and late transitioners will soon be a thing of the past, and a lot of the transphobia that relies on the negative connotations attached to late transitioners with kids etc will also be gone

also some people have more social dysphoria, some have more physical dysphoria, and likely both in different measures, like its all spectrums

"The point is, if someone is trying to go about their day and navigating their life as a trans woman, chances are they have gender dysphoria."

I don't know how you can know this.

I think you are behind the times on what trans really means these days.

Women did not 're-define 'trans'.

From Stonewall:

Transsexual – this was used in the past as a more medical term (similarly to homosexual) to refer to someone who transitioned to live in the ‘opposite’ gender to the one assigned at birth. This term is still used by some although many people prefer the term trans or transgender.

This is what I should imagine many people think being a transwoman or transman is. It's what I thought it was when I finally came out.

People who are cross dressers or TVs have nothing to do with me. I don't relate to that community and have little in common with them.

Yet the term 'transsexual' seems to be outdated - funny, no one asked me as a transsexual. But Stonewall say so

Crispy why don't you read the trans widows escape thread.

Yet the term 'transsexual' seems to be outdated - funny, no one asked me as a transsexual. But Stonewall say so

Indeed. Most people think trans is just shorthand for transsexual..boggles their minds a bit when they find out that the umbrella is so wide it encompasses many many types of people, and some yes, who simply have a fetish.

@Italian currently the proposals for self id only relate to instances of the use of birth certificates.

There's been lots of claims it allows all sorts of stuff, as though it affects bathrooms and changing rooms, which it doesn't. That access has been there since 2010.

SO again, the only reason to fear self-id is the anti trans propaganda linking a multitude of things onto self-id and all kinds of baseless projections, it is only relevant to a situation where any cis person would have to use a passport.

^Is why many transsexual people are reclaiming the word transsexual too. Trying to distance themselves from the rest, and I cannot blame them at all.

@notterfnotcis

Societal pressures and expectations can be very very strong.
As can 'self internalised ' trans hate - the idea of being repulsed by the idea of being trans and really trying to fit in and reject the idea of being trans.

OK @crispbuttyfan I was listening to you. I am trying hard to be open-minded here. After seeing your link to the authors comments I went back to the original paper. I am wary of propaganda (from either camp) and want to look at original sources. This is what it says:

“Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.”

This says that transwomen (referred to as male-to-females in the study) had the same risk of committing any crime or violent crime as men. They retain male pattern violence. And are more than 6x (closer to 7x) more likely to commit a crime compared with women. Like men.
In the clip you posted. The author says that this is not the case for the later cohort of transwomen, but I can’t find that data in the original paper.

SO again, the only reason to fear self-id is the anti trans propaganda linking a multitude of things onto self-id and all kinds of baseless projections, it is only relevant to a situation where any cis person would have to use a passport.

Nope, the reason to fear selfID is that businesses are adopting a selfID model, and putting women (and transsexual women) at risk in the process.

Along with GRCs becoming totally meaningless also, which they would be if there was no element of 'gatekeeping' involved in the process.

What I find interesting, is the amount of posters recently who have been on to tell us that next to nothing will change with the GRC becoming self ID (ignoring that transactivists are also pushing for exemptions to be removed..and falsely informing businesses that they are breaking the law providing single sex spaces). Now, if nothing will change, why the aggressive push for change? Why the need to shut women up when they try to discuss this? Why the fear of people actually researching themselves and coming to their own conclusion? Afterall, if nothing will change, then its not needed surely? Odd.

Stonewall: Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois.

I believe Beaumont were first though: Traditionally regarded as a secret MTF group for cross-dressers, the society has significantly evolved since these humble beginnings. It’s now open to any section of the transgender community who would like to join, MTF, FTM, bi or non gendered – even wives and partners.

If you don't want to be under the same big lovely inclusive trans umbrella as cross-dressing men, tell the trans orgs, not us.

Lets not crispy

And i dont know anyone in RL who uses the word cis..they seem to manage

SO again, the only reason to fear self-id is the anti trans propaganda linking a multitude of things onto self-id and all kinds of baseless projections, it is only relevant to a situation where any cis person would have to use a passport

I am transsexual. I have been diagnosed, had HRT, had surgery, been assessed by psychiatrists etc - and got a GRC.

I know what the GRA says about the GRC. And what a GRC means.

I think that self ID is wrong. I think that there should be a proper system to get one.

Trans – an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois.

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms

If you don't want to be under the same big lovely inclusive trans umbrella as cross-dressing men, tell the trans orgs, not us.

Nooo don't look there, ignore that and blame feminists and mysterious anti trans organisations. maybe similar to the far right group thats infiltrated mumsnet?!

@flowersonthepiano

I would say that if you are genuinely interested in the study and being open minded, read this, yes it is posted on a trans site, but because the author did not like the way it was being misrepresented to attack trans people..

transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

Still not understanding how it can possibly be claimed that self identified 'transwomen' are less of a risk than any other man. When 'self identified' is just them saying they are women. So men become less dangerous statistically by uttering magic words?

Also not understanding how, when stonewall et all say crossdressers and such are trans...its the fault of anti trans groups that crossdressers and transsexual people are linked?

Oh sorry I see it has already been posted! Took too long on my phone.

@yetanothertranswoman thanks for being here. I've got nothing against transsexuals and I hate that transsexuals are being conflated in with cross dressers etc.

Vickxy You misunderstand the equality act.
The point is women must be treated equally to men, that is one of the things underpinned as women are a protected characteristic.

There are exemptions stating when it is lawful to have separate spaces for males and females, such as toilets changing rooms etc
Transphobes are pushing this as though trans women are considered male, and don't have access to female facilities by law.

These are not exemptions that apply to trans people, these are when it is allowed to separate into two binary classes.

The gender reassignment protection means that trans people are considered as part of the group of their gender identity.

So those are not allowed exemptions to keep trans women from female toilets, it is explicitly stating trans women ARE allowed into public female facilities.

There are allowed exemptions, such as domestic violence centres etc
And there are a few exemptions available but need a huge burden of proof to prove they are proportional, very little case law exists where it could be used.