Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

Secondly because of this Moral panic, cis women are having their autonomous expression policed.
Gender conforming women are much more prevalent than trans women, and they are being attacked and refused entry to female facilities.

Stoking an anti trans moral panic is counter productive and causes harm amongst cis women.

www.newstimes.com/local/article/Woman-mistaken-for-transgender-harassed-in-7471666.php

*gender NON-conforming women are more prevalent...

Have been away for the afternoon but has calling people “cis” now become acceptable on these boards?

Apparently prancing

Approximately half of trans identified (male) prisoners in English* prisons are in prison for violent or sexual crimes. (I need to find the stats it might be British prisons.)

I treat trans women with respect and use pronouns they wanted or name etc. But I can't pretend all this stuff doesn't matter. Self id will be very bad for women and girls because males cannot be females.

@crispbuttyfan you seem to equate being gender critical to being racist, is that right or did I read that wrong?

"Its exactly the same tactics that racists, anti lgbt, anti-immigration groups have used throughout history to stoke fear and dehumanize a class of people."

Do you think Terf is a slur website is making that stuff up? Or is it the equivalence of racism to actually report what is being said?

cis women are having their autonomous expression policed.

I heard of a case of a masculine-looking woman, who'd previously had no problems being read as a woman, suddenly finding that people thought she was a male-born trans person. That wasn't because of a 'moral panic' but because of the huge publicity given to trans ideology. In fact she got people complimenting her 'bravery'. Needless to say she wasn't too pleased about it.

@Datun, I get it, your still pushing propaganda stuff.
It was the actual author of the study!

Any study you link that shows raised levels of criminality in the trans community not linked to poverty and anywhere close to the male metrics for sexual assault, is bunk.

Show me it, that relies on anything like a reputable source and I will go through it.

Cross dressing as fetish is prevalent in cis men, and is in the dsm5, however it has nothing to do and is entirely seperate to the section covering gender dysphoria, by conflating cis men, with paraphillia's, and trans women with gender dysphoria as so many transphobes insist on doing, is clear evidence of an attempt to conflate and obfuscate the truth.

"Have been away for the afternoon but has calling people “cis” now become acceptable on these boards?"

The use of 'cis' highlights that they aren't really discussing, they are lecturing. If crisp really wanted women to understand their point and get on board with what they are saying, they would use the language that doesn't alienate us.

I thought stonewall were conflating

Here is a survey done on the link between sex offenders and transgenderism.

b: because of deliberately misinterpreting studies such as the swedish one I mentioned above, it is implied trans women will act and pose the same threats of men, and are likely to be sexual deviants...

Genuine question here, how on earth wouldn't transwomen pose the same risk as any other man? Afterall, trans does not mean post op transsexual person, it means anyone who simply says they are a woman, so any man. When you include the likes of crossdressers as 'trans' too, then you will find that transpeople commit even more sexual crime than other men, purely because that fetish is overrepresented in sexual offenders to start with. This is how you end up with 50% of 'transwomen' in prison being there for sex offenses.

crispbuttyfan

Please stop using the term cis. It is reductive, misogynistic and offensive to most of the women on here. Please also stop using the slur transphobe for women who believe that gender is a social construct and sex is a material reality. It is also offensive to most of the women on here.

You say:

When Target in the US announced a public policy to allow trans people to use the facilities that aligned with their identity, there was quite a backlash from the US transphobes.

Rightly so, as it turns out. Since there was a 30% uptick in sexual offences such as voyeurism, after this policy was introduced.

@italian Terf is a slur is a propaganda site that also conflates trans people and cis-male fetishists, along with some trans edgelords, mostly twitter stuff I seem to recall, and yet there are around 40m trans people in the world, the site at best contains 0.001% of trans people, and I could find equally problematic cis men, or cis women at at least the same percentages and likely more. Terfisaslur and the whole notion of peak trans, is like..... no one ever said they peakcis'd by hitler, myra hindley, or any other dastardly cis people.
Criminality is in all walks of life and trans people are no different, and no studies show trans people are more likely to be criminals.

Yes there are articles that make those claims, wordpress blogs use all kinds of charts and cherry picking and sophistry...

AT the end of the day, it is all propaganda, and the swedish study is one of the few that is peer reviewed.

And attached is the words of the AUTHOR of the swedish study herself..

Gender conforming women are much more prevalent than trans women, and they are being attacked and refused entry to female facilities.

Women who present feminine are being denied entry into women's spaces? Please cite reputable sources for such incidents - as many as you can if possible, so that we can assess any pattern with some degree of authority.

If you actually meant gender non-conforming women - ie women who do not present feminine, eg butch lesbians - please also cite similar reputable sources of such incidents for the same reason.

Thanks.

Its stonewall that conflates fetishists and transsexual people. Not feminists, not terfisaslur..stonewall. And any pro trans group too. Take it up with them, surely? I mean, I agree that there is a huge difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual, but it is the pro trans groups that have made it this way! Not any 'anti trans propaganda' or whatever.

Langclegg I assume your talking about the propaganda put out by anti-lgbt pastor paul dirks? That uses standard anti trans tactics? And taking various cases that happened way before the policy, and many other that cannot be corroborated by actual court or charge details in the public domain?

Whereas trans people have had the same access since the 2010EA and there has been no uptick in problems in the uk

Terf is a slur is a propaganda site that also conflates trans people and cis-male fetishists

Stonewall is a large and well respected LGBT charity that also conflates trans people and cis-male fetishists.

@crispbuttyfan

It's kind of you to want to put women's minds at rest. But the reality is you cannot vouch for any person, male or female, you cannot tell your friend where she will or will not be safe.

Self Id is not about real transsexuals. It is about any male being able to self Id as female. You do not know which male may choose to use self Id.

Some trans women are very upset that women want to talk about things that affect us biologically, so they want to control feminism.

When the Americans had their feminist March wearing pussy hats there were loads of trans women complaining on social media that women wanted to talk about their biology.

Why should males who identify as women control what actual women talk about? It's just more control of woman by males.

Monroe Bergdorph (a trans woman) was in a magazine (Gratzia I think) telling women we are doing feminism wrong!

Imagine if white people told black and minority ethnic people how to be black and minority ethnic? Told then what to talk about when they met together!

It's not the fault of your average nice friendly transsexual but then it's not women's fault either. And so it is demanded of (nice, kind, think of everyone else first) women to not talk about this in case trans people are upset.

Woman should be able to ask for an actual female to perform an invasive procedure on them, a natal woman. Is that somehow not acceptable?

I care about trans people. I want them to be safe and well.

Female biology is real and it matters and saying so is not equivalent to being racist. My male trans friend (trans woman) told me there is no such thing as female biology. Not some unknown person. Someone I thought could talk sense! Every time I am told this crap I start to feel a little less like engaging and more like talking to real women. I was once a big ally.

And attached is the words of the AUTHOR of the swedish study herself

I've don't think I've ever heard activists on here say 'Hang on, you could be right. There are some issues with that study"

I have heard people repeatedly quote that study again and again.

Still - all sides in this debate misuse statistics. It's something that any activists do to try to make their point.

No matter how many times the poster is asked to not refer to us as cis women, they're determined to have their way.

I don't consent to being referred to as cis.

I disagree the trans community are doing the conflating.

The anti trans brigade do that entirely, they even go as far as to specifically target those who don't pass very well and claim they are a man in a dress, and just a crossdresser or a transvestite and can't really be trans because they aren't even trying etc etc it's judging on appearance.

Not everyone can understand gender identity, but those who clearly admit they don't understand it, then assert themselves and arbitrators of who is true trans and who are transvestites etc.

The point is, if someone is trying to go about their day and navigating their life as a trans woman, chances are they have gender dysphoria.
The thing about cross-dressers and transvestites, is mostly they don't navigate their lives as women, they don't use womens facilities and they dont present as women in public. It is a private thing or they go off to specific nightclubs etc

The thing about cross-dressers and transvestites, is mostly they don't navigate their lives as women

What about those men who transition late in life, often when they've got a wife and kids? Did they develop gender dysphoria late, and if so could it be treated by less drastic means than surgery?

it's judging on appearance

If a transwoman doesn't 'try' to like a woman, they are accused of not being trans

If a transwoman appears to be very 'feminine', they are accused of upholding stereotypes.

@Juells I apologise if being called cis offends you. I would refrain from referring to you directly as cis.
Out of the same spirit of respect to trans women, I would not refer to them as cis-male, or TIM's etc I am sure you can understand that too.

But when I am discussing the situations I have there needs to be a definition to separate trans women from cis women, as I'm sure your also aware there are many differences as well as similarities in experiences, but for the sake of discussion lets separate them into two separate groups of women, using fairly well established language almost everywhere outside this forum, such as trans and cis.

If a transwoman doesn't 'try' to like a woman, they are accused of not being trans

Edit - 'look like'

Did they develop gender dysphoria late, and if so could it be treated by less drastic means than surgery

Or maybe the dysphoria has always been there but it was suppressed too much and finally came out - especially in a world where trans people are more accepted and trans people finally realise they are not alone.