Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

The comments I made in relation to contraception, are based entirely on the GGUK guidance.

Being a rainbow leader, I have read the GGUK guidance and trust me it makes absolutely no mention of leaders carrying contraception.

This is completely your interpretation of the guidance. The guidance merely states we should allow transgender children to join guides and we're not to tell the parents.

What I'm struggling with is why on earth a teenage lad, who wishes to change gender, would want to bunk in/shower with the girls?

Given that they will have, presumably, had a tough time prior to their decision, from bullies, why would they want to expose themselves (literally) in a girls' shower?

Conversely, would a girl who want to change to a boy be comfortable appearing sans penis in a boys' shower? Would she feel/be safe?

And crucially, why would any parent allow their child to go through that potential trauma, especially away from home?

Also, there is a vast difference between a parent providing contraception and a teacher/guide leader. Its just not our place to do so.
Also, I'm no spring chicken and times haven't changed that much on this issue (or in fact at all) since I started teaching many many years ago! It has never been the case and I doubt there will ever be a time when I will be taking contraception with me on residential school trips. You are very out of touch and shows your complete lack of understanding of the issues.

whathaveiforgottentoday

Indeed , the guidance for dealing with individual sections doesn't mention it until you get to the Senior section.

but there is more generic guidance which discusses the provision of contraception at residential events - it is called
Let’s Talk About Sex and Relationships: Advice for Leaders
at bit.ly/2GIV8h4

for what the GGUK say about Contraception
the leaflet is
Let’s Talk About Sex and Relationships: Advice for Leaders
at bit.ly/2GIV8h4

and the discussions starts under the heading:
Providing Contraception
and goes on to start with:

It is the policy of Girlguiding to make every effort to safeguard its members from physical, sexual and emotional harm while participating in guiding activities.
We recognise that Leaders have good knowledge of the girls in
their units and are in the best position to judge whether or not it is appropriate to carry barrier contraception (for example condoms, female condoms) with them on residential events or keep them at the meeting place etc. etc.

it will be received and added tp the work that is being done.
No one is trying to do this yet, but there will be a consultation I am certain, we just don't know when

You make these statements with such unwarranted certainty and confidence.

These organisations have so far been keen to be seen as “trans inclusive”. The ground level workers dealing with the actual problems have correctly assessed that they will be pilloried by trans activists, likely lose their jobs and possibly be prosecuted for hate crimes for identifying that a TIM is a male person. Their organisations will not support them and they do not want to be considered transphobic anyway. They have also correctly identified that there is not government appetite to do any work or carry out any consultation on these issues.

This is thanks to activists like you who have created the current situation.

Your overall approach on this thread has been to educate those who you believe to be in need of enlightenment from people like you. You talk of your daughters having a lifetime to learn about trans identities giving them “an insight others might not have”. Do you realise how superior that comes across? What I read is that they have had a lifetime of indoctrination into accepting your views without critical thinking and at the same time placing their own boundaries second.

This thread has been an interesting insight into the views and analytical abilities of someone who is so often presented as an expert whose voice is so much more important than us mere women who have thought long and hard about these issues. Your obfuscation and frankly alarming views about sexual behaviour and contraception for children in Guiding situations are very worrying. I hope this thread will encourage more women in the confidence of voicing their own views as the voices Maria Miller etc are so keen to listen to are based on so very little clear thought.

Wow ..... I had no idea and I am shocked at reading this.

I've certainly not read anything like this in schools and I could see the way any conversation between me and my students would go if they asked for contraception on a residential trip......

I'm no prude but I find this statement below fairly worrying and I wouldn't let my daughter go on a trip if they leaders felt they had to take contraception with them. (luckily I know my dd1's guide leaders pretty well and i can't see them feeling the need to take a batch of condoms with them)

I will stop hassling you on this issue and go and mutter to myself about the world going mad for a few hours round the house!!
p.s - i teach sex ed in schools and very happily discuss the need for condoms so no problems discussing sex etc.

For girls aged 13 and over
If a Unit Leadership Team decides that it is appropriate to carry barrier contraception with them on residentials,
or to keep them in the meeting place, this is their decision and Girlguiding supports this. Equally, if it is decided
that it is not necessary or required, Girlguiding supports the decision not to store barrier contraception.
It is important for any unit, however, if they decide to store barrier contraception, to make this known to
parents and carers and girls before the event. Before barrier contraception is given to a young member,
Girlguiding requires that a Leader should consider the Fraser Guidelines (see page 8).
Regularly check that stored barrier contraception are in date.

Well I think we can all conclude that the world has changed.

My partner and I are now going away for a 10 days, to India (a dream of ours - though it is partly work).
I don't think I will be writing much (unless I get Ghandi's revenge. No, after my experience of Cleopatra's revenge, I can't imagine that I would be up to reading, never mind writing -- lots of immodium is packed) .

I am aware there is a question around prisons, and the Swedish paper I have started writing in regard to that, but it might be a while.

In the meantime, thank you for the conversation.

I have my fingers cross that the weather stays as much like spring as possible for you all, and suggest gardening or the park might be a useful alternative to this place.

oh - and MargeH Mon 09-Apr-18 14:22:41
What I'm struggling with is why on earth a teenage lad, who wishes to change gender, would want to bunk in/shower with the girls?
Given that they will have, presumably, had a tough time prior to their decision, from bullies, why would they want to expose themselves (literally) in a girls' shower?

I agree, and you know what, I don't imagine any of them would want to. But I am prepared to be surprised/ amazed/shocked as in all these things.

In the UK there has only been one reported problem with a situation where a trans woman, wished to enter a female sauna (it was just after the Gender Recognition Act 2004 which was why we heard about this)
She was pre-genital surgery. We were all very surprised, until it was acknowledged that she was in the middle of a serious psychotic episode.
A month later she was abject about what she had done.

I go to the gym, and shower at home, like most trans guys, and trans women who are living permanently in their preferred gender role. We like to be safe, not stupid.

And - I am very concerned about any aggression going on on either side.
It is wrong, absolutely.

That is no way to have a debate.
And I tell my community that, as well as anyone else

And we never needed it in the past - rationality, and a willingness to learn by all is essential.

stephen
I think Gender dysphoria (confusion, distress and deep unhappiness) which causes severe distress is a medical condition which can benefit from intervention, whether that is counselling, therapy, or in some cases, gender reassignment.

Were you aware that your opinion is out of line with the current view of the Royal College of Psychiatrists that gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition?

‘Gender identity disorder’ is the umbrella term used in the 10th edition of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD; WHO, 1992) although it is expected that the 11th edition will adopt the new term “gender incongruence” and remove this from the mental disorders chapter, hence de-classifying being trans as a mental disorder.

I note you used the words 'medical condition' rather than 'mental health condition', but since gender dysphoria is clearly not a physical health condition, you could only mean 'mental health condition'.

"suggest gardening or the park might be a useful alternative to this place."

This is a patronising gem.

It's great to read @jayceedove's contributions in this thread.

Its so reassuring to hear other transsexual people speak sense.

Hear hear Debbie.

DebbieInBirmingham

Hey, Debbie! You're a teacher, right? Can I ask you the same question that I asked Stephen?

If your school were to arrange a residential trip on which there would be shared bedrooms for 11-15 year-olds, would you think that the school had adequately met its safeguarding obligations by assigning two teens of different sexes to the same room (regardless of declared identity) and not informed the parents of this arrangement, but instead provided the accompanying teachers with a stock of contraception?

Thank you @1955stephen for contributing to this thread. I'm grateful for the work you have done and especially to protect trans people from the worst of what the press used to inflict on us.

I don't think that de-medicalisation is a good idea, though. It sounds liberal and progressive, but we need to mainain rigor in the law to protect both women and trans from society making up the rules as it goes along. If you've not already seen it, may I ask you to read through this piece I published recently? quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

I'm a 49-year old teacher.

@LangCleg I wouldn't put children of the opposite sex in the same bedroom.

The common sense solution for a child struggling with their gender is to put them in an individual room.

Thanks, Debbie. I think a great many of us here are struggling with the shocking realisation that anybody - gender affirmative, gender critical, parent, not parent, anybody - could possibly think this is a good idea. Nobody wants trans children singled out or bullied or anything else, but we can't entirely bin safeguarding developed over decades - largely in the wake of various abuse scandals and crises - in that pursuit. Girls matter. Their boundaries matter.

"I can imagine what would have happened if one of those kids went home pregnant - my bankruptcy, and possibly worse - an Italian father arriving on my door step."

I have to admit being thrown by the fact that this response centres solely around the impact on you and not on the children.

oh - and MargeH Mon 09-Apr-18 14:22:41
What I'm struggling with is why on earth a teenage lad, who wishes to change gender, would want to bunk in/shower with the girls?
Given that they will have, presumably, had a tough time prior to their decision, from bullies, why would they want to expose themselves (literally) in a girls' shower?

I agree, and you know what, I don't imagine any of them would want to. But I am prepared to be surprised/ amazed/shocked as in all these things.

@1955Stephen
Unless things have changed since I did games at school, showering after PE wasn't optional, unless you had your period. So would our hypothetical male 'girl' just be allowed to opt out of that too? But still able to be present when all the female 'girls' are obliged to get naked en masse?

If the male child really wants to be treated as a girl, then they should be obliged to accept the bad bits as well as the good. Or was George Orwell right - ‘All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.’?

@DebbieInBirmingham that’s a brilliant piece.

stephen
I think Gender dysphoria (confusion, distress and deep unhappiness) which causes severe distress is a medical condition which can benefit from intervention, whether that is counselling, therapy, or in some cases, gender reassignment.

OldCrone
Were you aware that your opinion is out of line with the current view of the Royal College of Psychiatrists that gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition?

@OldCrone Yes, this is exactly the issue I was hoping to raise and Stephen’s response gave me a good eyebrow raise.
The lines have become so blurred in what it actually means to be ‘trans’ and now includes so many different forms of gender non-conforming presentations, that we’ve ended up in a situation where The Royal College have decided to do away with gender dysphoria as a recognised mental health condition altogether – this will not end well for people suffering gender dysphoria. They are being thrown under the bus in the same way women are.
I seriously question the motivations behind doing this.

“The College recommends that the WHO International Classification of Diseases (ICD) and the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) should, at the earliest opportunity, de-classify any terms they use to describe transgender as a mental health disorder.”

@LangCleg putting two children of opposite sex in the same room would be a safeguarding hazard. I'm astonished that anyone is willing to sign off a policy that permits that to happen. They can't be thinking clearly it considering the possible consequences.