Where are all the trans men? An Answer.

[1955stephen]

Someone asked: I have also wondered where the trans men are in all this!

So decided to do a little of record ethnographic research and talked to a few of my 'trans men' mates about this, over my orange and soda, and their beer or two. I asked whether they would consider to contributing to an online debate., like the one on Mumsnet.
All said they really limit their online stuff to what is absolutely necessary for family and friend's purposes i.e. a bit of facebook and that's that. Though many said they used Whatsapp to talk with family quite a lot.
It seems some go onto computers when at work, but most don't even do that - they are very hands on people; a doctor, a ceo, a dentist, a teacher, a manager of a day centre, a physio, a occupational therapist, a firemen, a stable owner, a policeman.
They only go online when real life obliges them to do so - such as talking to their mum.
They said they go on to buy absolutely essential items; a sprogget needed to fix a toilet flush, bracket to fix the kid's bunk beds, or when told to change the milk order cos their partner was going to bed.
Two said they went online to get a new book on their kindle, or to find a film for their partner, their kids, their mother etc.
Most said they don't want the hassle of participating in online talking. As another put it: "by the time the evening has arrived, I have run out of words. I simply cannot carry on talking, and typing means saying the words in my head". (I understand that feeling) .
Another said "going on the computer is just too much when all I want to do is stop, eat, wash and go to sleep."
Another said "ask me to come round, and choose between 1. digging your garden, 2. print and pack 2000 newsletters, or 3. type words, I'll chose them in exactly that order: 1, 2 then 3".
And another said; "as a journalist I am online a lot - watching, but I limit my participation to when I have something worthwhile and different to say. That's not often".
It seems, therefore, from my small selection of consulted trans men, that most trans men limit computer use to work. And we just don't want to do it after that.
I understand because that is how I feel, and have no urge to change that.
There will be some who participate online (as I do to a limited extent), but if people don't want to, they don't have to - and they are probably mentally healthier for not doing so.
Has anyone counted up men's and women's use of talking chambers on the internet? I wonder what hormones have to do with it..

@vaginafetishist

Clear as daylight.

Stephen, are you interested in reflecting on whether the outcomes of this work you did are beneficial or detrimental to girls and women?

Thank you Mouth. It makes me very angry.

This was all empty, pointless propagandising.

Stephen is quite wrong: sex does not legally change under the Act. The Act enables someone to be treated under the law as if they were the opposite sex. The Act contains no definition of woman and man and therefore cannot include men in the legal definition of women, because there is none. The person has not legally changed sex, they have been granted permission to be treated as if they were opposite sex.

Stephen is in large part responsible for us having to fight for our daughters' basic rights all over again. I have nothing but contempt for all the activists who brought us here.

This is how I peaked, reading Stephen a few months back.

How useful it was having a woman write all that.

I was late to this thread but the last few posts have been eye opening. I never thought I would ever agree on anything with Norman Tebbitt (and this is very much the only thing).

I think @1955stephen owes every woman and girl an explanation. Little girls can't go on their first brownie holiday without guaranteed single sex accommodation. This could have been foreseen, it was foreseen.

Why are the rights of women and girls to assert their own boundaries deemed so subversive that they must be crushed?

A question indeed.

An attempt at gaslighting has been called out.

*Sex' is a difficult word as so many people have pointed out.
Science and medicine appear to take two approaches to the definition of biological sex;

1. there are those who advocate biological sex as being a consequence of multiple, complex, interactions within the foetal developmental process, which results in two sexes only, with many variations between the two, and the occasional outlier beyond the two.

Alternatively,

1. there are those who advocate biological sex as being a consequence of multiple, complex, interactions within the foetal developmental process, and as such, whilst it provides 2 larger groups of bodies, it also suppliers multiple smaller groupings of bodies. That variety is considered normal within the sense of how nature works, in most multi-cellular animal forms.*

Thinking about this,isn't it irrelevant? Unless the "multiple smaller groupings of bodies" actually correspond to gender identities? Otherwise surely you still end up with female and male bodied people,and the female bodied people are still suffering discrimination/ disadvantage because of their biology,regardless of gender identity (even if you think gender is an actual thing)?

Yes, InfiniteCurve completely irrelevant I think.

Also points 1 and 2 are not definitions. They are theories about causes.

Regardless of cause, the result is biological sex.

The definition of biological sex is really simple. Males produce small, mobile gametes.

Females produce large, immobile gametes and are capable of gestating young.

Yeah but hysterectomies, yeah but infertile women, yadda yadda. Lets assume someone has raised all this and it's all been explained.

I did start this thread quite sympathetic to Stephen, my natural instinct is always to take people at their word.

I think he has been disingenuous and squandered that goodwill though.

I was late to this thread but the last few posts have been eye opening. I never thought I would ever agree on anything with Norman Tebbitt (and this is very much the only thing).

I think @1955stephen* owes every woman and girl an explanation. Little girls can't go on their first brownie holiday without guaranteed single sex accommodation. This could have been foreseen, it was foreseen.

Why are the rights of women and girls to assert their own boundaries deemed so subversive that they must be crushed?*

They never thought beyond that, these are unintended consequences. I don't ascribe any maliciousness at all to Stephen, however the way we are going permits the malicious, the insincere and the dangerous the upside of the law. Organisations with little money are at risk of spending the rest of their existence in a court or under sustained campaigns of aggression. Let us ask Stephen to reflect on this? What was clearly envisaged as a proportionate relief for dysphoria has transpired to be something else. Can Stephen be brave enough to acknowledge this? I hope so, and hope there are equivalent intelligent voices to take this to the next stage of evolution of strategy in this conversation. Emergent strategy is much more effective than dug in dogma. For us all.

There are really outstanding intelligent people talking about this here and elsewhere, trans people are at the forefront, I have been more informed by trans people TBH. I salute them.

Stephen is a lawyer and capable of foreseeing the possible outcomes to legislation.

From here (Deptford People's Project)

Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford. We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary. See below

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area.

You must understand we are not graduate activists or or women’s rights campaigners. We are community workers and our concerns regarding changes to the GRA come from a lifetime of personal experience and having worked with some of the most marginalise people in our area.

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse...

domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison,rehab,homelessness and austerity.

The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services.Some have and will access all of these services.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class goldsmith (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking. They do this without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.

As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) members of the community are and have always been excepted and protected by community organisations.

We are now informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. All that has changed is privileged students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised.

The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people who we support.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self id. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class people.

We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.

When we are being verbally abused and called fascists because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

when sharing information about this event and attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education. Thank you x

This is not unusual, I've encountered similar problems in my work.

Do you have anything to say about this Stephen?

Aaargh Pratchet, you got me, damn and blast. Thank you.

I do think reading that paper it smacks of manipulation due to a reciprocal need to find and create a legal justification and structure, and politicians are so easily subsumed by lobbyists, which is a vicious circle once the lobbyists are funded by the legislators.

So I retain my empathy.

But not once Eddie Izzard and his mates turn up here being crispbuttyfan.

PencilsInSpace - thanks for posting the Deptford statement in full here. I hope everyone reads it and really takes in what Lucy said. The social constructionism at the heart of transgender ideology has implications way beyond gender and is disastrous for all genuinely marginalised groups - the homeless, the imprisoned, working class single parents, the list goes on.

It doesn't just ignore structural power relations; it denies they exist. And therefore it just reproduces them. People who actually have structural power and advantage appropriate oppression simply by dint of a bit of Judith Butleresque "transgression" - middle class students with blue hair becoming non-binary, middle class white straight men taking on a trans identity.

And the people who pay when structurally advantaged people appropriate oppression? The people helped by projects like the one in Deptford. Women in prisons. And yes - Guides on camping trips.

LangCleg
do you know the GGA has an extensive guide for leaders, which deals with all aspects of safeguarding and sexual relationships.

it includes guidance on what to do if there is a possibility of sexual activity; including

--- when sexual activity is legal (or not), and
--- what leaders can do to safeguard girls including getting in experts to talk about sex and relationships,
-- when to carry barrier contraception, and when to give it to a girl, and
--- when to give emergency contraception
with guidance on how to use the Fraser Guidelines, to consider whether a girl is competent to give consent to receiving contraception (barrier or emergency) without her parent's consent.
It is at bit.ly/2GIV8h4

So, of course I would not think it was acceptable to have a policy which does not mitigate risk of unplanned pregnancy in tweens and teens nor informs parents of this risk.

But the problem with your argument, is that the GGA DOES HAVE the policy documents to ensure leaders are actively involved in the mitigation of unwanted pregnancy in all girls, at all times, whilst under the care of the GGA.

@LangCleg
Yes, I'm stunned by the academics supporting this ideology, I read a paper recently that said the state should withdraw entirely from all registration of birth sex and leave all organisations to battle it out in the courts. Politicians are naive enough to consider this is progressive.

Mouth I didn't mean to get you! I think you are 110 per cent completely right! I am just mean I think.

I simply cannot believe what I am reading from someone who claims to give women an exalted position! Claims to care about women and children.

And yet is willing to throw us and our daughters under the bus! Shocking and very sad.

www.academia.edu/29907082/If_the_state_decertified_gender_what_might_happen_to_its_meaning_and_value

Politicians are naive enough to consider this progressive

Transactivists have been grooming them for a bl*dy long time. This has been an astonishing kickback against feminism. It's only through peak transing that I have come to realise how much the regular joe resents women advancing their rights in any way. We took a tiny bit of their privilege and they hate it so much they did this. And most of them are colluding.

I hope I follow you on twitter, Mouth. I guess we will never know