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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

J Rees Mogg

178 replies

Mumsnut · 02/04/2018 13:14

In The Times today:

He is uneasy about some aspects of the transgender rights debate.

‘If you have people who have no intention of changing sex but think it would be fun to go into the women’s changing room, we cannot ignore that.’

OP posts:
AskBasil · 02/04/2018 15:42

That and the fact that they've got most of the money, of course. Grin

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 15:44

he believes that the drive to eradicate sex segregation is troubling because women and girls are to be protected (because of notions of property and propriety), and I believe it is troubling because women have the right to boundaries and privacy Completely different worldviews

You really have no basis whatsoever for that "property" claim. "Propriety" is just another way of saying what feminists say when they talk of privacy, dignity etc.

Claiming that JRM thinks women are male property just makes your argument look a bit silly. He is anti-abortion-many people are. It does not mean they consider that makes a woman anyone's property.

wrappedupinmyselflikeaspool · 02/04/2018 15:46

I see a couple of problems with this. Firstly it is less brave of Rees Mogg tl come out as a terf because he is 1. A man 2. Someone everyone loves to hate anyway so he has nothing to lose.
Second, it IS important to distinguish between those who are coming at this from a conservative right or religious right position (and those who are just plain homophobic/transphobic) and those of us who are coming from a feminist or gender critical position because otherwise it is easy for others to dismiss us as old fashioned/bigoted/right wing etc. Etc.
By the way it’s not that I don’t think it’s good there’s some common ground, just that we need to keep the different perspectives and motivations in mind, not least because that’s also what is important about the trans debate. Where I’ve managed to peak fellow leftists I’ve done it as ‘one of them’ and let’s face it, it’s mostly the left who are driving this, Im sure they would dismiss me if they thought there was no difference between mine and JRM position

spontaneousgiventime · 02/04/2018 15:47

If I only voted for someone I agreed with on every single issue, I'd never vote. I agree with him that self-id is a bad idea. That doesn't mean I have to agree with him on anything else.

This ^ 100%

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 15:49

CarrotyO
Bore off DullAndOld, no one cares that you think her arguing is "sloppy".

It was perhaps a little rude to call it a sloppy argument but , I agree it was.

mummybear701 · 02/04/2018 15:57

He's against ANY form of equality, be it LGBT, women, disabled, vehemently anti abortion and embryo altering, etc. He's a character and I like that but we need a more moderate Tory on side to be taken seriously.

DontCisgenderMe · 02/04/2018 15:58

As a left wing, feminist, atheist Remainer, I can’t imagine that there would be much that I would agree with JRM on.

But as a pp said, that one sentence was a statement of ‘the bleedin’ obvious’. It doesn’t stop being the bleedin’ obvious because it was JRM who said it.

In a world where many otherwise intelligent people are scared to state the bleedin’ obvious, I applaud JRM for doing so in this one example. It doesn’t imply that I support anything else he says.

SophoclesTheFox · 02/04/2018 16:01

I get it, I get it, nobody liked my comment! Grin

All I was getting at is that there is a thread of conservatism where there is a surface level of agreement with feminism (about pornography and women's bodies, usually), but it comes from radically different roots and reasons. I idly speculated that JRM might be expressing an aspect of this. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Maybe terry's venn diagram explains it better. Maybe askbasil is right and it's just common sense.

But JRM is not the hill I care to die on, and if this was one of my less well formed opinions then - ah well. Too bad!

Theworldisfullofidiots · 02/04/2018 16:06

Personally I think jrm is a dangerous man in lamb's clothing. This is about protecting women not empowering. I'm not a victim nor do I want to be perceived as one. Actually what I want is a few politically savvy women standing up and having a sensible conversation.

Connfusion · 02/04/2018 16:19

Nothing he says on this one issue makes it safe to vote for him. Is all.
And being 'a character' is not a plus. Boris and JRM play on that.

AskBasil · 02/04/2018 16:30

Firstly it is less brave of Rees Mogg tl come out as a terf because he is 1. A man 2. Someone everyone loves to hate anyway so he has nothing to lose

And also, it's not brave at all, because everybody agrees with him, bar a few fetishists, blue-haired idiots and virtue-signalling meeja and political types who he despises anyway. He's talking over their heads to the public, who haven't for one moment swallowed this rubbish.

AskBasil · 02/04/2018 16:33

"I'm not a victim nor do I want to be perceived as one"

Victim isn't a character trait.

It's an acknowledgement that something that wasn't your fault, has happened to you.

I really dislike the way the word victim is used to denote "weak character".

Terftastic · 02/04/2018 16:53

I must admit, his utterly calming manners & politeness are refreshing - compared to the shouty politics of so many young people in universities now, and the spoilt brattishness of Owen Jones types.

I'll take a reasoned argument delivered in a calm voice, over someone shouting 'TERF, TERF, TERF' and 'No Debate' in my face any day.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 02/04/2018 16:56

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BabyItsAWildWorld · 02/04/2018 17:01

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LangCleg · 02/04/2018 17:02

But JRM is not the hill I care to die on, and if this was one of my less well formed opinions then - ah well. Too bad!

LOL! He's not a hill I'd care to die on, either. I think he is quite a dangerous man who hides a lot of worrying stuff behind that Boris-style harmless posh boy image.

That said, if he says something I agree with, I will acknowledge it.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 02/04/2018 17:12

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Theworldisfullofidiots · 02/04/2018 17:15

I agree victim is not a character trait. It's a psychological state. Technically someone can invite you into that state or you inhabit it by choice.
Quite frankly I don't like JRM. I absolutely agree with free speech and his right and mine to hold differing views. For me there is too many other things that he argues for which are about disempowering women for me to believe he is authentically advocating for women.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 17:26

And also, it's not brave at all, because everybody agrees with him, bar a few fetishists, blue-haired idiots and virtue-signalling meeja and political types who he despises anyway. He's talking over their heads to the public, who haven't for one moment swallowed this rubbish

Oh yeah, so if it's so easy why aren't all the MPs doing it?

Yes I thought that first comment was a bit unfair.

On abortion his views are presented as his personal views. I don't think he is lobbying for a change in the UK law.

gussyfinknottle · 02/04/2018 17:38

It's horrifying that expressing unease about self-ID makes you a Stepford Wife Tory.

Icantreachthepretzels · 02/04/2018 18:01

The fact that someone assumes there is an unspoken background to what JRM has said instead of taking it at face value and exactly as he has expressed it just implies that they are prejudging him.

When a public figure, who has made many previous public statements makes another one - it is not prejudging him to remember these statements and place this new one in context of his already publicly known views. That is applying critical thinking and it is a good and intelligent thing to do.

He has previously announced that he is against abortion 100% - even in the case of rape.
He is against same sex marriage because he supports the teaching of the catholic church. He doesn't mind people being gay as such - but he believes they shouldn't be allowed to marry, and that is the important issue.

He has 6 children and has never changed a nappy.
Post brexit he wishes to slash environmental and safety standards - claiming that regulations 'good enough for India' are good enough for us.
Here are some things he has voted against: gay rights, the smoking ban, laws that promote equality and human rights, allowing terminally ill people assistance in ending their life, an investigation into the Iraq war, the right to remain for EU nationals living in Britain post brexit, raising welfare benefits in line with prices, spending public money to create guaranteed jobs for young people, a tax on banker's bonuses, granting more powers to the devolved govts in the rUK, measures to prevent climate change, slowing the rise in rail fairs and greater regulation in gambling.

Here are some of the things he has voted for: use of UK forces in overseas combat operations, replacing trident with a new nuclear weapons system, the bedroom tax, reduction in spending on welfare benefits, increasing the rate of VAT, allowing employees to exchange access to employment rights for shares in their company, restriction of trade union activity, reducing capital gains tax, reducing corporation tax, raising England's tuition fees, ending financial support for 16-19 year olds in training and further education, reducing central funding for local govt, an equal number of electors per constituency, fewer mps, a stricter asylum system, the introduction of police and crime commissioners, mass surveillance of people's communications and activities, merging the police and fire services, selling England's state owned forests, culling badgers, HS2, phasing out secure tenancies for life, the privatisation of royal mail and reducing the scope of legal aid.

Rest assured, JRM is an evil evil man. His own voting record (publicly available on the internet) proves it to be so. He is no friend of the poor, the vulnerable or of women. He is the friend of big business, bankers and billionaires. And he uses his political clout to attempt to punish the one group and favour the other.

So he has said something that roughly aligns with concerns that women in general and feminists in particular have about self id? Whoopdee fucking do. It is not sloppy, or prejudicial to examine that in context with all else he has done. Sophocles is perfectly reasonable to assume that it comes from a place of bigotry - it sure as hell doesn't come from a place of feminism.

And if you're one of the posters who said you liked him - look at his voting record and for christ's sake rethink. He isn't a joke. He is a powerful man with backwards and harmful views that he hides behind well spoken, genial toffery. He is unbelievably dangerous.

A man like JRM echoing legitimate concerns that women have ultimately does us more harm than good. He is known to be evil , by those who bother to look into these things. The brocialists aren't gonna listen to him - but they will use the fact that a man like him has used one of our arguments against us.

He isn't being brave - he has nothing to lose. He has said far worse and had it laughed off. And he isn't speaking for us. So let's not crack open the champagne and start congratulating him yet, eh?

Melamin · 02/04/2018 18:02

I would assume that he is coming from a place of common sense, which I thought everyone would do........until I found out about all of this madness.

Victorians knew a lot about where babies came from etc, so I suppose it is within his brief Wink

BabyItsAWildWorld · 02/04/2018 18:06

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Icantreachthepretzels · 02/04/2018 18:09

You may find this is not A Fact.

That would depend on your definition of evil. Did you take a look at his voting record? What word would you use to describe it?

BabyItsAWildWorld · 02/04/2018 18:10

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