Important to remember there are people on BOTH sides of the debate

[Winewinewinegin]

I totally appreciate that people are getting very cross about the way some people are acting.

I also think it is important to remember that there are plenty of very decent and also some very vulnerable and targeted trans-identified individuals in the U.K. And across the world.

We do them, us, humanity and the rational compassionate debate sorely needed in this area NO FAVOURS by making generalisations about trans people that are sparked by irritation at some people's actions and goading.

Let's say what we need to say, but with respect, understanding and consideration for the wider picture.

LostArt
I haven't seen anything on MSM where a TIM has been told that their definition of women is wrong.

Stating the truth plainly, and the same is true outside of the msm in leftie/socialist/liberal/anarchist circles - women know your place, the men are speaking!

msm?

No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

Hahahaha.

Feminists have ALWAYS had a bad name. Feminism has always been hated and silenced and shut down.
The only times it hasn’t was when it’s been bastardised and corporatised to serve the patriarchy, feminism is only socially acceptable when it’s a movement that centres every body else with women last in line. Aka NOT FEMINISM.

"I think Errol is right. There are plenty of non TRA trans who have concerns and who are being silenced too."

Or are they not speaking up because they can't differentiate between different TIM either?

All TIM are self identified. Noone goes to the doctors with a headache and gets diagnosed as trans. Every single transsexual, transgender or gender fluid man has made that choice. What some want isfor women to believe them without question. When I see TIM on here, I see men who don't want us to look at the GRA too closely.

Concern should surely be focussed on those TRAs who deliberately manipulate, stoke fears and drive the narrative that women raising concerns are 'baseball bat wielding, book-burning, rape inciting, evil terfs who doxx vulnerable children' and are intent on erasing people who are transgender '
It is they who pose the greatest risk to all of us....

I agree Daffodil the fact the narrative has been allowed that TERFs kill people is astounding. Seriously fucked up.

MSM = mainstream media.

Also agree with daffodil.

No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

If that's the case then we're pretty much doing it right.

Sometimes it's true that you catch more flies with honey but this continuing assault on the rights and the very definition of women and girls has gone waaayyyyy beyond that. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I never went looking for this fight but by dog I will not stand by and let it happen while I wonder if I'm being nice enough.

"As an actual, biological female, I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging.
Every trans person, by definition, is perpetuating a false idea about women.
So, whilst a trans person may be 'nice' as a person, their beliefs about sex are about as sexist and damaging as can be, and I do not need to respect their position in regards to this issue and how it pertains to me and all females."

I'm with you Barracker, this the absolute crux of the whole thing for me.

Totally, Wine.
You can state a case perfectly well without being insulting. It's really important to make a distinction between "I disagree with you" and "We are sworn enemies". The TRAs of the sort deplored round here can't make that distinction. Let's be better than that.

Yeah don't try to police other women on this, women say what they feel is appropriate so deal with what someone says if you have an issue with it, but posts like this are just condescending and misguided.

Wine... I meant focussing on the group of TRAs rather than women who have been deliberately silenced by them!

There are very few TIM who come onto Mumsnet who don't want to redefine women to include a self identified subset of adult men

Possibly not, but I've seen a post saying
Personally speaking I don’t buy the pink brain/ blue brain hypothesis. Coming from a biomedical background I’m not going to deny the fact of my biology. I’m a woman who presents as a man.

I’m not transitioning to leave womanhood or femininity behind, I’m doing it to feel more comfortable in my body.

That's from a trans-identified female, Transhobbit - not sure if they post here any more, which is a shame as they sounded v sane and sensible.

So being a feminist is what gives feminists a bad name? That's pretty much always been the case, and it's not the tone people are objecting to, though they may claim that it is in an attempt to manipulate feminists into speaking less directly and therefore less effectively.

Why do you think women's right to privacy and dignity is up for debate?
What is there to debate. We are quite simply saying no.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

Given the history in the UK with coercive laws that mandate belief you would think politicians would know that it has never once ended well.

"Well behaved women seldom make history."

Laurel Thatcher Ulrich 1976