Important to remember there are people on BOTH sides of the debate

[Winewinewinegin]

I totally appreciate that people are getting very cross about the way some people are acting.

I also think it is important to remember that there are plenty of very decent and also some very vulnerable and targeted trans-identified individuals in the U.K. And across the world.

We do them, us, humanity and the rational compassionate debate sorely needed in this area NO FAVOURS by making generalisations about trans people that are sparked by irritation at some people's actions and goading.

Let's say what we need to say, but with respect, understanding and consideration for the wider picture.

I understand why you are saying this wine but I think causing a fucking uproar is a far more effective tactic than playing nice. Fuck being nice, it's got us nowhere fast.

Barracker
"Every trans person believes that 'female' is a psychological state.
As an actual, biological female, I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging."

You totally nailed it.

Being a woman is not a psychological state of being. It is a biological reality

"Nice" has been tried. It didn't work. It never does when the people you're arguing with see kindness as a weakness to be exploited.

Whilst I agree that something like criticising prominent transwomen, say, can look like six of one, it really isn't.

And yes I agree that those particular posts can be taken and used.

But it's really a drop in the ocean compared to what's coming at women.

And if anyone takes exception to it, then they are already prejudiced and won't listen.

Other than that, I can't think of any other viewpoint that could, justifiably, be held against anyone, to be honest.

Being blunt about biology, saying you don't want men in your space, whether dysphoric or not, is entirely rational and completely justifiable.

Can you be more specific Winewinewinegin?

What exactly do you think is, possibly, out of order? Which bit?

I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging.
This is how I feel. I try to be kind to the reasonable transwomen and transmen who post here, but it feels like denying reality in order to spare someone's feelings. Up until recently, it seemed like a harmless thing to do (why not be kind to someone if it makes them feel better), but now we are all being forced to accept the lie as reality and laws are being passed to make us conform and take away our rights.

I definitely don't want people to censor debate or 'be nice' to spare feelings. I agree mumsnet is doing a great job of moderating. Many of the posters here are voices I know, recognise and really respect. I see the behaviour Angryattackkittens is describing.

I also believe there is a very effective story being spun to some politicians in particular that needs to be tackled and that as there is more attention on women's voices we should be aware of that.

My posting doesn't seem to be helping much with that at the moment though so I might leave this point for now.

I really appreciate everything people are doing and saying - particularly many of the voices on this thread. Especially people who have been on this for a long time, and those in the media.

I think things are building and building and there is a lot of hope and possibility.

This is a good point:

The problem is that can't be controlled when a large part of the debate occurs on social media under pseudonyms. TAs pretend to be gc feminists and then make posts and threads as inflammatory and abusive as possible

"No wonder feminists are getting a bad name."

All women have to behave in an appropriate way because anything else reflects badly on all women. Women don't have 'not all women are like that', unlike TIM and men in general. Nobody is calling out the misogyny of the trans movement, because like misogyny in general, it's seen as a reflection of the individual, not the male population as a whole. No one believes TIM are women, some just use this as a way to stop women voicing an opinion.

And what BarrackerBarmer said.

I think the tide is turning. There's a long way to go, but compared to where we were a year ago in terms of open dissent? Big improvement.

I also think that there's a value in the lashing out that TRAs do in response to debates here in that when you compare what's said here to what they tend to say it would take a fairly extreme level of misogyny not to notice that it's not us who're demanding that no discussion be allowed, issuing threats, etc.

I also believe there is a very effective story being spun to some politicians in particular that needs to be tackled and that as there is more attention on women's voices we should be aware of that.

Yeah, I think you’re right on that. Not news to anyone I’m sure that we get presented as cruel bigots who think trans people’s feelings aren’t genuine. So it’s worth bringing that point up in discussions with those who assume we do believe this - to say, yes, I do believe lots of people genuinely hold this belief, I just don’t think that makes it objectively true.

But also, I don’t think we do come across as saying this if people actually read what we’re saying. And that’s why there’s such pushback to the very idea someone would listen to a feminist perspective on this (like the Brian Paddick thing). It’s a lot of “they say such awful things - but don’t actually listen, you’ll have to take my word for it!”

So still no examples Winewinewinegin?

Do you think it's your socialisation talking? Are you worried that women holding strong opinions is alienating men?

Because, of course, it does. But then ultimately, it achieves.

Whereas being nice, never achieves.

Just think back to the extreme lengths that women have had to go to to change every single law that redresses their disadvantage.

It took 15 years for men to make rape within marriage illegal. 15 years of lobbying and campaigning by women.

It's almost difficult to imagine that, less than 30 years ago, there was such resistance to something so obviously wrong.

I would have strongly agreed with you a while ago OP. In fact I started a similar thread myself.

I have changed my mind a bit though.

I’m with you though about the “stoking” of anger and I think it’s important to put corrections in ASAP when incorrect facts are set out.

Interesting a month ago I posted a video trying to point out the difference between women and men when publicly discussing trans issues.
I posted a video showing a MRA type man who didn't hold back on his views and how no one was calling to have him fired, etc. He is free to have robust views and women are not, even within ourselves we cannot show anger. Almost the last taboo is for us to be angry to shout out and be loud.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3179599-How-Men-React-to-LadyBrain

I think this place is remarkably restrained after seeing what’s going on in other places.

Perhaps if we all identify as men people will stop telling us to be nice, inclusive, compassionate, kind, simpering etc.

Perhaps we should all just pop off and chat about kittens and knitting?

What if I identify as an ornery bastard?

For the love of God, could someone with a couple of seconds explain to me how to reply here?
The reply button does FA.

I cannot agree.

I will not direct hatred towards any individual or individuals.

I will continue to put forth my opinion that the idea of self ID is the biggest danger to women’s rights in a century.

I will not be ‘nice’ about it. I will say what I think, in a calm and rational manner, without being abusive in any way.

If people are offended by a woman stating a strong opinion in a calm and rational manner, then they need to look at themselves and ask why they are offended by people disagreeing with them.

Politicians in particular need to understand that women, across the divides of race, creed, colour, age and class are furious and worried and they need to understand that our voices and our votes will follow our opinions.

I am angry. I’m calm, I’m rational, but I’m angry. I refuse to be nice.

That would make you a mule kittens

Datun I agree with all of that.

I don't think anything is out of order at all.

It is obvious to pretty much everyone who has spent any time here that this is a large group of decent people from a variety of backgrounds with serious and valid questions and concerns.

My point is more that to some (who should know better) particularly in politics we have been painted quite surprisingly effectively in a very different light. So if they have been told by people they trust that we are anti-trans rather than as is true pro-women, this will be the lens they use to interpret how we talk and act. TRAs using that to distort the debate is a key part of the problem. That distortion needs to be changed to move the debate on.

You won't change the mind of any TRAs, extremist or otherwise by being nice.

Politicians won't say anything gender critical until public opinion makes it safe to do so.

We are speaking to the general public, who have been misled by pro-TRA media spin about what exactly the implications of self-ID and the rest of the TRA agenda are.

This article posted yesterday - angrybirdroar.wordpress.com/2018/03/28/watching-the-terfs/ - this is how I speak IRL. This is how the people I speak to IRL also speak. They understand me. I'm blunt. There's nothing wrong with blunt.

Moreover, pussyfooting around is WHY the general public is so ill-informed. What we need to do is not show due deference to Brian bloody Paddick or avoid sniggering at the arsehole that is Shon bloody Faye. It's to inform the general public about what is going on by telling it straight.

When a critical mass of public understanding is reached, politicians will shit themselves and change direction.

Hypermice

You can't 'reply'.

That button just lets you post.

If you want to reply to a specific poster, cut-and-paste the name. If you put an asterisk on either side (no gaps) it bolds it. If you put an @ it bolds it and sends them an email notification.

Get it right though Lang. It's no deference to Brian 'Pillock' Paddock or avoid sniggering at Shon 'Faux' Fayre

So if they have been told by people they trust that we are anti-trans rather than as is true pro-women, this will be the lens they use to interpret how we talk and act. TRAs using that to distort the debate is a key part of the problem. That distortion needs to be changed to move the debate on.

I agree. But I also agree with LangCleg.

Politicians were told. They had written evidence from feminists. They were not allowed to speak. They have had letters, lobbying, appeals, campaigns. The lot.

They've either disregarded it, not appreciated it, or are now on the back foot.

Maria Miller said, after the report was released, not before, that the only objection was from women 'purporting to be feminists'.

Disregarding what the feminists actually said before the report was published.

Which leads me to believe that she simply didn't think there would be much pushback.

She absolutely knows.

She's being a politician.

Public opinion is the only way to get politicians to take action. And talking on mumsnet, promoting articles, etc, is the way to do it.

And it's working.

we have been painted quite surprisingly effectively in a very different light

But that’s not down to the tone of the debate on here. It’s driven by misogyny, and the fact that it’s very easy and socially acceptable to equate feminist with screeching harpy.

My point is that ANY disagreement, regardless of tone, with TRA activists will be met that way. It wouldnt matter if we were polite, apologetic, respectful, angry or howling abuse - they do not brook any dissent whatsoever.

The cure for that is not to reframe he tone of our debate - there is literally no form of words or use of language that will change their minds. It’s like trying to persuade Faith with Logic.

Politicians will NOT listen until there is a critical mass of the public being sufficiently annoyed about this.

I feel the tone of the debate on MN is generally respectful of individuals who do not fling abuse themselves. Where ridicule is directed at individuals it’s in response to invective. Fighting hate with mockery is not a violent crime. MNHQ do remove posts that are genuinely transphobic. The rest stay, because they are statements of opinion, backed by logic and fact.

I agree it's working Datun.

Which is why the TRAs are being even more vicious.

Every trans person believes that 'female' is a psychological state.

I'm not sure all the non-TRA trans people who've found MN to be one of the few places they can talk without censorship agree with that. There are indeed people on both sides of the self-ID debate, and some of them are transmen and transwomen who are being silenced as much as women are.