Important to remember there are people on BOTH sides of the debate

[Winewinewinegin]

I totally appreciate that people are getting very cross about the way some people are acting.

I also think it is important to remember that there are plenty of very decent and also some very vulnerable and targeted trans-identified individuals in the U.K. And across the world.

We do them, us, humanity and the rational compassionate debate sorely needed in this area NO FAVOURS by making generalisations about trans people that are sparked by irritation at some people's actions and goading.

Let's say what we need to say, but with respect, understanding and consideration for the wider picture.

Get it right though Lang. It's no deference to Brian 'Pillock' Paddock or avoid sniggering at Shon 'Faux' Fayre

Heehee. But y'know. It's true. We need to make it clear to Joe Public what is happening. Shon Faye knows what is happening. Brian Paddick knows what is happening but doesn't want to admit it in public (like most women Labour MPs). Why must I be polite to them? I'd rather tell Joe Public that his daughter might come home pregnant from a Guides trip and if Brian Paddick had only listened in the first place, she wouldn't have been at risk.

I agree with what Barracker said about generalisations. We are told not to generalise about trans people.

But the entire trans ideology is based on generalisations about womanhood and what being a woman means. Whilst the actual biological realities of womanhood are dismissed as unimportant side issues not worthy of discussion because they might exclude trans people.

Fuck that.

I just looked at the #girlslikeus hashtag and most of it is like a sort of mumsnet-for-trans-women.

There are comments on there that do just look pointlessly unpleasant

Women are pissed off because a small subset of non-women are trying to tell them what being a woman means? How very dare they?!

@Datun

Thanks!

#girlslikeus is #peaktrans in action

A 2 second look and the 2nd tweet was

twitter.com/somuchKat/status/976116677619396608

After a few years in this quagmire I'm actually starting to think that having a wide range of feminist approaches is in fact a good thing.

I don't exactly chime with the hardline approach of some radfems who think there should be no platform at all for gender critical TiMs like Miranda Yardley. I respect the purity of their position, but I think they are less likely to succeed with this approach - however, I'm actually glad they are taking their own position on this. It has helped my interrogate my own beliefs about how pragmatic I want to be to succeed.
At the other end are the feminists who are happy to accept some men as women if they have met certain criteria (GRC, SRS etc). I think this is a mistake and simply resets us back to the point at which our laws conceded that the female sex didn't really exist as a category any more. It's a holding position that ensures we are delaying the inevitable pushback once again about 'truetranswoman' criteria.

There are those who argue from an ideologically academic approach. I respect this, but I don't think it reaches most people at the right level.

And there are those who make memes, which convey the message so effectively in 5 words that rafts of people suddenly get it.

There are the calm protesters, letter writers, lobbyists, and civil disobedience disruptors. Banner makers. Internet warriors. Petition makers. Chanting Protesters.

I think we need all of them. All the different approaches speak to different people. The message that biology exists, and matters, and should not be ignored for any ideology is getting through, one way or another.

And I don't see people 'converting' from a gender critical approach to a transideology approach.

The penny drops in only one direction.
Because gravity, like biology, is a material fact that nature can't ignore.

Yes so agree Barracker. This is something that affects all women and all women in different ways. People will get it through different language and lenses. They will use different approaches that will affect different people.

BarrackerBarmer

Excellent post. Completely agree.

Apart from anything else, women are angry each in their own way. It's utterly impossible to make everyone agree. And why should we?

It's quite astonishing, already, that most women have exactly the same goal. Which is to retain female sex-based protection.

With some minor disagreements about hammering out the details.

Facts don't have feelings. But people do. If we are going to make a convincing political argument we need to take those into account when lobbying and persuading.

That’s a much more compelling point than “It’s nice to be nice, Ladeez”.

I think we do need to accept that “people living as the opposite sex” need to be catered for, and probably avoid the kind of misgendering which looks spiteful, while making our points (ie, point out that Transwomen are natal males as much as is necessary but maybe be flexible on the pronouns), and generally just emphasis the problems of self ID specifically and that fundamentally sex is real and gender is a construct.

That’s strategic, not stylistic.

"No wonder feminists are getting a bad name."

NO FAVOURS by making generalisations about trans people

This is one of the problems - generalisations about feminists - A-OK, generalisations about trans people - BAD

Like LostArt says - women don't seem to be NAWALTed unlike men, trans.. I know that's because so many men (and women - because of our patriarchal society) seem to forget that women are people too, with rich inner lives, not some amorphous blob sat at home looking after everyone.

BarrackerBarmer

As an actual, biological female, I find the ENTIRE ideology insulting, sexist, false, regressive, unscientific and damaging.
Every trans person, by definition, is perpetuating a false idea about women.
So, whilst a trans person may be 'nice' as a person, their beliefs about sex are about as sexist and damaging as can be, and I do not need to respect their position in regards to this issue and how it pertains to me and all females.

Total agreement with this. The very concept of 'being transgender' relies completely on making a ton of sexist generalisations on 'what makes a woman a woman, or a man a man, if it isn't biology?' The idea that 'woman' is a feeling a man can have about himself that is more true than the lived understanding that women already have about themselves, is grossly offensive. Every time someone says "you have no right to say trans women aren't women" to women what they are saying is that we have no right to identify ourselves. I have no right to observe and acknowledge and state that what I am is something meaningful and distinct from something a man is or wants to be or could ever be. He is allowed to identify what a woman is, but I am not. This fact alone shows that the people who say this shit do not believe it. Given the choice between respecting a woman's right to identify herself and a man's right to overrule her, they are backing the dude. It's the biggest tell there could be that the whole thing is the same old misogynist sham.

seem to forget that women are people too, with rich inner lives, not some amorphous blob sat at home looking after everyone.

Well bloody said.

I am convinced that this is why the rage over the treatment of trans people is directed at feminists, not at men, even when men assault and kill them. Violent men are just being men - not great, but still behaving according to gender role. But women’s gender role is to support and affirm others, and if we’re refusing to do that then the sky will fall.

Even here refusing to perform that gender role will upset and/or enrage some people. Such is life, I guess, though you might expect women posting on a feminist forum to at least try to work their way through that piece of internalized misogyny.

I definitely don't agree with this:

"No wonder feminists are getting a bad name."

And the debate is about all women, whether they see themselves as feminists or not. And society as a whole.

There's a link in one of the threads today to a thread on the FWR board in December, and it's worth looking at. What stands out a mile:

A quarter of a year ago there were (very occasional) articles about gc views
People were writing letters, talking to politicians, pointing out the issues, and dealing with the Labour Party making reproachful and punishment-threatening noises to women who won't think what they're told.

A quarter of a year later there are lot more, nearly weekly articles about gc views, but people are still writing letters, talking to politicians, pointing out the issues, and dealing with the Labour Party making reproachful and punishment-threatening noises to women who won't think what they're told. However many of those women have now left the Labour Party, have fundraised to legally challenge it, have held multiple meetings across the UK to raise awareness and discuss what is happening, and a number of women have started to organise weekly public protest action.

The contrast in the debate here over the last quarter of a year: for a start the group of people talking is much bigger and broader than it was. The discussion is blunter, plainer, and most of all it's a hell of a lot tougher.

As pps have said, nice, tactful and respectful reasoning, using the proper channels and being above reproach achieved precisely nothing. Those are the strategies depended upon for women to keep themselves in their place.

I am convinced that this is why the rage over the treatment of trans people is directed at feminists, not at men, even when men assault and kill them. Violent men are just being men - not great, but still behaving according to gender role. But women’s gender role is to support and affirm others, and if we’re refusing to do that then the sky will fall.

Exactly this. The whole trans ideology is based around gender stereotypes, so women who want to break down those stereotypes are inevitably going to be seen as the enemy.

I think it's worth remembering that the suffragettes resisted, persisted and disrupted. They learnt martial arts. They chained themselves to railings etc. Political rights are gained and lost by fighting. It's not nice. It's not polite. It's too important for those social niceties.

No wonder feminists are getting a bad name.

Never let that worry us. Feminists have always had a bad name, whether campaigning to have the vote, for entry into certain professions, for equal pay, for the right to have loans without male guarantors etc... t'was ever thus.

I don't make personal attacks but the time for 'nice' is over. The gloves are now really off.

"I'm not sure all the non-TRA trans people who've found MN to be one of the few places they can talk without censorship agree with that. There are indeed people on both sides of the self-ID debate, and some of them are transmen and transwomen who are being silenced as much as women are."

I don't see evidence of this, Errol. There are very few TIM who come onto Mumsnet who don't want to redefine women to include a self identified subset of adult men. Some even claim to be female, and say they have been a women longer than most here have been alive. I haven't seen anything on MSM where a TIM has been told that their definition of women is wrong.

I think Errol is right. There are plenty of non TRA trans who have concerns and who are being silenced too.

But women’s gender role is to support and affirm others, and if we’re refusing to do that then the sky will fall.

Exactly. I'm happy to - and already have - support dysphoric trans people in the fight for services and against social discrimination.... up until the point that this conflicts with women's rights and/or the safeguarding of minors. At that point, the transactivists who disagree are on their own. If they don't like that, I don't give a shit. Failed female socialisation and proud of it. So there!

There are very few TIM who come onto Mumsnet who don't want to redefine women to include a self identified subset of adult men

Not many, but there are some.

Probably I should say "social prejudice" - I mean interpersonal hostility based on GNC presentation.