Brian Paddick asking for feminist views on Self Id

[DarthArts]

Fair play - he's asking for opinions.

He's being pointed to a woman's place and a lot of other GC women and Transpeople.

I wasn't suggesting that we (or I) flush him out.

More about the result of his meeting with Karen. But maybe you're right, and speculation is counter-productive.

We are giving him space aren't we? Does that mean we have to censor ourselves in our own space as well?

But really, I do think there might be some mileage in drawing the attention of the interested to thinking about the potential long-term consequences of remaining silent and not just the short term consequences of breaking silence.

@TallulahWaitingInTheRain

Thing is "a week is a long time in politics".

The long term implications of this are far less interesting to an ambitious politician than the support that can be garnered right now.

To be clear I'm not referring to BP in this regard - as a member of the HOL he's actually in a position to be more inquiring shall we say.

For current and prospective MP's it's a scolding hot potato that's best served slathered in butter or for slightly more brave, left in the oven.

Very few (if any) are going to make mash with it, as a continuation of the analogy.

Raising awareness of the need to tackle this and speak up generally, particularly amongst politicians and the media is really important.

Just because politicians and others aren't speaking up on twitter or elsewhere at the moment doesn't mean some aren't listening and becoming more aware/aware of the issues.

I think suggesting we flush people out is not likely to help fan the small flames of listening and debate that could be started.

Nobody is suggesting anybody should flush people out. You're projecting, Wine. And, frankly, you seem to be saying that nice Brian has told us little ladies that he'll think about it so now we should show due deference to the important man and trust him with our interests.

He's a man. He's in politics. He's already waded in and chosen a side without having investigated at all, on the assumption that the women must be wrong. The issue is a hot potato. Even if he subsequently realises he was wrong, he is highly unlikely to say so. Why? Because women don't matter to men. That is exactly why we are where we are.

If it all collapses and the "right side of history" suddenly changes, Brian will tell us he was always with us. But never ever while there might be negative consequences for him. Cos he is a man and we are women. Low priority.

Women are always being told 'we'll respect you more if you just behave a bit more like a doormat', 'we'll start listening if you would only speak a bit more quietly', 'we would stop taking advantage of you if you were just a bit nicer and more generous'

It doesn't work

It could be political suicide for someone to be considered transphobic.
Even though it's not remotely transphobic to be concerned about the erosion of genetic women's rights, it is often being framed as such.
It takes a brave politician to risk it.

If the wider population can grasp the fear of the repercussions of self ID, rather than self ID itself, then politicians will fall over themselves to win a popular vote, but right now it looks like people are against the principle of self ID rather than the knock on effects and rights issues, and that (imo) is a key message that's not hitting home thus the misguided accusation of transphobia

Absolutely, Tallulah . It's the 'if you didn't wind me up I wouldn't have to batter and strangle you' line you can find women on the relationships board living with daily. It's just got a liberal bro sweater on and has been niced up a bit.

@TallulahWaitingInTheRain

"They'll sit on their hands until a generation of sterilised, mutilated children is demanding to know why this was allowed to happen and then they'll tell us they always stood against it."

It's grim. It's brave New world.

Have you see stuff about ROGD? Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

I googled, got some sites. Then lost it. Googled got some antis and went from there!

At someone is recognising the contagion.


At least someone.... I mean people talking about ROGD not Brian...

But are there other 'high profile' peeps willing to stick heads above parapets? Are there any out there with little to lose?

Are there any lesbians mobilising? Anyone high profile? They surely cannot be accused of old fashioned bias.

I am becoming to feel hopeful. Not that Brian will ride in on a white charger and save us, but that his pony's hooves might throw up some dust and allow other voices to rise. Voices we really trust, our national treasure LGB and T people who want to say hang on, i transitioned as an adult but here we have young kids at risk, women's rights at risk, young girls hating their lesbian selves and female bodies.

The problem we high profile feminists or a lesbian making the point is that the public will assume it's a niche issue or being raised by those with radical views. That isn't a criticism of those making the point but of the public in general.
It needs what people perceive to be middle of the road high profile people to explain it in middle of the road terms. I don't think Mr or Mrs 2.4 Kids of Bedfordshire are switched on to the looming problems, nor do I think they will immediately realise that a high profile feminist isn't on some new bandwagon complaining about a relatively obscure issue. It's feminists who are spotting the issues well ahead of the rest of society, but people aren't appreciating the issues affect the mainstream.

I agree
but I'm not sure who a middle of the road high profile person would be
David Attenborough? He is unassailable (IMO)

Alan Bennett

Dawn French would do a good job of cutting through the crap but I have no idea what her views are.

Attenborough would be fantastic and could present the biological female case with ease. I doubt anybody would perceive him to have an agenda.
Stephen Fry perhaps, or Fiona Bruce.
But I don't think they should be a spokesperson, merely well respected people who seem rational, intelligent and without prejudice.
But I suppose we too have to do our part amongst friends and be calm and collected in how we express ourselves and present the issues.

I hope someone has the guts to speak out which seems such a sad plea. It shouldn't take guts, just common sense.

The problem we high profile feminists or a lesbian making the point is that the public will assume it's a niche issue or being raised by those with radical views.

And this is the beauty of the dismissing of all women's views.

There are normal every day, Mr Mrs 2.4 children, up in arms about this.

Guide leaders, parents of children in swim teams, mums with kids coming home crying because they think they're the opposite sex, parents of gender nonconforming kids who are confused, lesbians, women in sport, parents of young lesbians, students being ostracised.

Loads of normal people. Who instantly get pushed into the terf box of 'extremists' and told to shut up.

Burn the terf is an exceptionally effective way of shutting down normal people.

Many people are encountering this. But, by its very nature, it won't be most people.

Although, it will be more, and more people.

Lots of men and women see this as a 'principle', not worth bothering about.

Which is why the examples that are already happening need to be highlighted. Because it could happen to anyone, anyone at all.

I think it’s ideal that members of the House of Lords look into this. No votes (from the public) to lose but lots of influence. Robert Winston has also spoken out on this.
Would be great to be able to count on a solid group of Peers for support. There are also a higher % of medics and scientists in the Lords than Commons. It’s going to take collective effort not just from those who instinctively support women instinctively but also those who fear and resent science/reality being misrepresented to support TRA arguments and are concerned about the effects these reality-denying policies will have on public services, public life etc.

Further to that kind of political constituency in the Lords: (not at all politically feminist but concerned about freedom of speech and evidence based policies..)

I wonder if someone like Sense about science who campaigns for evidence based public policy, might be useful to contact on this issue?

Here's an interesting group of influential cross-party women www.parliamentproject.co.uk/people2/. No doubt some will be pro self-ID but some have backgrounds of working in prevention of violence against women & wanting more women in sport.

Lee Chalmers "is currently researching a PhD on the connection between online trolling and women's participation in public life".

I have hopes that Susannah Reid will come out on the side of women's rights, TBH - I think she has carefully picked around some of the issues on the couple of GMB interviews and segments on self-ID, and she is (no disrespect intended) nicely middle of the road, not a hairy legged woolly liberal

I wonder if someone like Sense about science who campaigns for evidence based public policy, might be useful to contact on this issue?

Ben Goldacre's Bad Science might be worth approaching too, although he writes in the Guardian

@TheBrilliantMistake but Ian't Brian a high profile gay man? Is his voice more persuasive than a high profile lesbian?

I think I am part of Mr and Mrs 2.4 in Bedfordshire!

Brian who?

I would like to be gently hopeful .... I think he has chosen his words with great care.... and is genuinely interested...

That parliament group does look interesting.

Lee Chalmers used to be Lib Dem but left to pursue other things and was an early adopter of WEP.

I am so aghast at what's going on in the Lib Dem's and their LGTB Group. I think about leaving every week but at the same time don't want to leave the party to people like them.

My DH is slowly gathering views of various people who are not particularly vociferous about this and it seems that LGBT Lib Dems have been pretty good at shutting down debate. When asked in private most people haven't given it much thought, are instinctively pro-trans because they don't realise that trans is a) different from being a trans activist and b) don't realise the implications of Self ID. Like my DH up until I started jumping up and down about it, it hasn't come onto their radar. Nobody that he's talked to actually believes that a trans woman is actually a woman and the sane as a biological woman. And they tend to be anti self ID.

I think, due to the fact that they block themselves into a bubble, LD LGBT have no idea that the majority of the party when they think about it don't agree with some of the basic tenets of trans activism but don't like getting shouted at and bullied so keep it to themselves.

I comfort myself with the observation that a number of the constituencies with the highest numbers of signatures on the 'consult with women' petition are also the areas where a lot of the Lib Dem trans activists are based. I realise the correlation is probably just coincidence but I like to think their aggressive dogma has turned the people who had to put up with them in their local party towards gender criticism.

They are sooo obnoxious i think in the end they will be the masters of their own demise but in the mean time, I am appalled at how they are dragging the party through the mud.