What do you use the womens’ toilets for?

[FancyRibbon]

Inspired by recent posts on the Radio 4 thread.
I realised that the whole ‘Why do you even care who is pissing in the cubicle next to you?’ argument against single sex toilets underestimates how I think many women actually do use/need the ladies’.

It’s not just about the cubicle being private to you as an individual woman (though this is really important), it’s also about knowing there is a door behind which there is a women-only space that can be really important. Some of that is specifically about it NOT being a male space.

So eg what I use the women’s toilets for is:

• pissing, crapping, dealing with periods, POAS
• a place to cry especially at work when you don’t want anyone else to see
• a place to go and just sit and feel exhausted because your baby is not sleeping and you’re back at work

-as above washing and drying breastmilk leaks on clothes which involving standing about with some stuff off

• a place to sort out falling down tights and gappy shirts, -against adjusting/taking off clothes possibly while checking in a mirror
• somewhere to talk to other women privately knowing men won’t be around
• in bars and clubs, a place to get away from male hassle

I just don’t want to share women’s toilets with men. Self ID will be making that not my choice any more. I feel that I won’t be able to just avoid gender neutral toilets and look for a women’s any more, because women’s toilets won’t exist and campaigning for them will be hate speech.

Not all men are predators, of course. But men are still far more of a risk to women than women will ever be to men, that goes without saying.
And it's women's toilets that are being changed to unisex, while the men's remain strictly for the men.

Not all of these reasons apply to cis women

Misgendering much...

Yes I think this is what is irritating me so much. If you call someone a him when they’ve asked you to stop you get threatened with all sorts but ask them to stop using that bloody word and you get ignored.

Think I’m starting to figure out what type of people have invaded mumsnet, relationships especially have gone weird. Pack it in with your cis crap!

I’m referring to a specific point where someone said only men would want access to women’s toilets not vice versa. I’m trying to get across if it’s an issue, there is the possibility of women inappropriately accessing men’s toilets.

Since when was disagreeing misogyny

My son doesn't require an urinal in the house. I know of no one who has them.

I would not buy a house that had one installed in the bathroom.

there is the possibility of women inappropriately accessing men’s toilets.

What would a women do that is inappropriate in a men's toilet?

@Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar

Seriously? I thought the implication was both male and female loos would be accessible to anyone who self ids as that gender. If that’s not the case then I retract my argument.

@TERFragetteCity

One of the things mentioned was a controlling partner - this works both ways
A woman could sexually assault a man in a men’s toilet. I don’t understand why that point is so hard to get.

Most men do not want to go into women's toilets.

I'd love to know what men do in men's toilets.

A woman could sexually assault a man in a men’s toilet.

Yes, she could. It rarely if ever happens, and women are a negligent threat to men if you compare stats of assault, but she could.

So all the more reason to keep the sexes separated.

Most men do not want to go into women's toilets.

No, but you can bet the ones that do are the ones who you’d want there least.

Generally just weeing, pooing, washing hands type stuff. And, if the DC are with me, stopping them opening the cubicle door whilst I'm in mid flow.

But once, as a student, it was to get away from a man who was persistently, and creepily hitting on me in an almost deserted bus station at five o'clock in the morning.

I don’t understand why that point is so hard to get.

We get it. You've had several answers. Your proposition is a) NAMALT/women do it too MRA nonsense, and b) sealioning because you know this already.

I don't think it matters what "we" use them for - their purpose is to reduce crime. It really id that simple.

Sex segregation of high risk spaces is necessary because women are disproportionately the victims of sexual crimes and men are disproportionately the offenders. By excluding men from spaces where the opportunity to offend is higher, the number of victims is reduced.

I'm absolutely astounded that in 2018, we are debating (or #nodebate'ing) the possibility of removing an effective, proven, crime prevention measure that keeps women safe. It's not unlike the gun control debate in the USA. This is a no brainer, surely? What kind of society proposes to increase the risk of harm?

a woman could self id as a man and use male toilets yes

I don't know what trans men do if they have periods and presumably cant use a urinal

I don't know what men do in toilets in general that they aren't keen on women seeing. I think most men would be really irritated by lots of women coming in to watch them pee and would rather they didn't. But maybe I'm wrong

@Idontdowindows

Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to get at. In some ways the private unisex toilets are better as they render the argument moot on all sides.

If I am leaving the door open in a toilet to keep an eye on a baby or child while I am using the toilet and/or to help a child use the toilet outside, a baby change facility isn’t relevant that that.

I haven’t seen a toilet with a baby change and an adult toilet inside the same big cubicle that can also fit in a buggy and a couple of children, I seem to have missed those.

And Yes. if there is a choice between me taking the kids into the ladies and their dad taking them into the men’s, we agree that i take them into the ladies. The ladies are generally cleaner from what I hear, less piss smelling. The ladies have seats for the kids to sit on without piss on them usually.
And without the chance of the kids seeing men’s dicks while they are in there which isn’t great for anyone, the men probably don’t want comments about that either. And yes, I don’t feel as comfortable with the kids being in a private male space like a men’s toilet when they are half dressed etc.

private unisex toilets are better as they render the argument moot on all sides

Except they don't, because they would still open onto a shared space, which is precisely what most women don't want, as they don't just shit or pee in the women's.

Unless you want to build each private unisex toilet big enough to hold one or two buggies, a couple of bags, a child or two and have enough space left over to change or clean or wash a bit of clothing?

I’m not trying to derail in the slightest. I do, however, think there’s a bigger picture to be taken into account which is what I’ve expressed.

I’ve learned some new acronyms though- thanks for that. Thank goodness for urban dictionary.

a bigger picture

What bigger picture?

Again, it’s a good point golden which works both ways

Which point? The misgendering?

I don't misgender anyone and I would appreciate it if others could afford me the same respect.

Assuming that I am cis because I am not a TW is offensive to me. I do not identify with any 'gender'.

Where I am most disabled loos double as baby change and you’d fit all that in to be fair.

I hate the term cis. Anyway.

The usual toilet stuff
Buying sanitary products that I forgot
Changing clothes (if there are no changing rooms)
Helping my daughter use the loo
Crying- when things are getting too much
Sorting out my hair - eg it’s mega windy etc

No, the point about controlling partners - both male and female could self id to follow a partner into loo.

The whole cis thing baffles me, I’m a woman. I have a vagina.

Don't know if anybody has mentioned this yet, but I've seen Muslim women removing and readjusting their hair coverings in the common areas in the ladies' loos.