Still cross about stall at primary school Spring Fair...WWYD?

[Wigeon]

So, one of the stalls at DD’s infant school yesterday was called “Don’t judge a book by it’s [sic] cover” and had a load of books wrapped in brown paper. You could choose a mystery book for 30p. BUT, each book had written on it either “B+G”, “B” or “G”, indicating whether the book was for boys or girls or both.

The irony when the stall was about not judging a book by its cover!

I started talking to two teachers who were standing nearby (women in their 20s), who both looked a bit embarrassed, one said “yes, I thought that was a bit odd”. Tried to ask them whether a book about trucks or dinosaurs wasn’t for my DD. What about a book about space, or the work of the police - was that a boy book or a girl book, or perhaps both? Then found a pen so I could re-label every book “B+G”, but stopped short of doing anything as it felt like I was interfering.

I think the stall had probably been organised by a well-meaning parent volunteer, so I think the teachers probably didn’t want to change it.

What would you have done? How come even young women who are in charge of teaching young children don’t feel this is sufficiently problematic to do something about it?

The truth is, it was a way of getting rid of all the shit books that NO ONE wanted when they could see the cover, and look inside.

I bet every book was a disappointment in its own way.

Waste of paper wrapping them up.

This is do easily avoided if they don't have books about fairies but instead have all the other books in the universe. Because let's be honest - girls are fine with cars and dinosaurs and trucks. It's boys' parents recoiling from fairies like they can catch the girl just by looking

I've just asked DS (9yrs, though has SN & is a few years younger socially) if given the choice, would he prefer a book about trucks or fairies? He said trucks, and his reason is ' in case it had Monster trucks'.
I asked DD (5yrs) the same question, and she choose fairies 'because they're lovely'.

I asked them if they would like both the books. DS certainly didn't want the fairy book, yet DD did want both. Ds says he just wasn't interested in fairies.

I've bought all of them up with the same toys; tea sets / teddy bears / dollies / cars / trains / dress up, and the same books. I've no idea why they both made the 'traditional' choice.
I'd ask eldest DS, except he's having a lay in and is nearly 16yrs, so doubt he'll want either book.

When I think about this topic, I think that on one hand, yes, we do have too many 'boy' and 'girl' clothes and toys. It's good that there are more gender neutral choices. I tend to see under 2s in them most.

I also think that pre-schoolers and primary age children are discovering if they are boys or girls. It's one of those key things when they realise and realise there are boys and girls in the world (not interested in transfer topics here) - and one of the out workings of that, is they are keen for people to know too that they are boys or girls and often to associate with other boys or girls. One of the ways they do this is very simple...it's by associating themselves with things girls or boys tend to like - so fairies or pink or whatever. And when you see very very small children making choices, you'll often see those who haven't been exposed much to the idea of gender colours, choosing the things we often associate with boys or girls....perhaps it's because they see others do it.

So I know there is a bit if a chicken and egg situation here, of cause and effect, but being in an totally gender bias free world for small children is impossible. Most boys won't be thrilled with a princess or fairy note book and many girls won't be thrilled with a football rubber. And those are things that lots of girls and then boys will like. Do we deny them those things and just put in some bland non gender biased stuff, like a green pencil or a packet of sweets to avoid this issue? I don't know. By the age of 6 or 7, it seems like it's too late.....but I don't know when or if it is even possible,mor actually desirable to totally remove the sense of gender difference.

But I agree that the name of the stall was a rather ironic. If it hadn't been named that, perhaps it wouldn't have been such as issue. Anything which involves choosing a surprise which is wrapped tends to be labelled boy, girl or both for the same reasons - think presents from Father Christmas too when you visit him. Perhaps the answer is always give books of a neutral theme.

But lots of girls absolutely love a bit of pink. Should it all be denied?

Primary school is exactly the place to challenge stereotypes!!
Hesterton's suggestion is spot on

This is about policing masculinity. Girls might like fairies but can be interested in a book about trains. But we have to teach boys that a book about fairies is kryptonite to them and they must never ever touch it. They pick that message up pretty quickly especially when we bend over backwards never to put them in the danger zone.

Exactly this -

Boys can't like fairies.. unless that fairy is a male who does kung-fu
Boys can't like dolls.... unless that doll is a male one dressed as a soldier
Boys can't have a toy buggy... but they can have a toy cart
Boys can't have a toy kitchen... but they can have a toy workstation
Boys can't have a toy hoover... but they can have a toy lawnmower

We're doing this to the boys, and it harms the girls, because the message the boys hear is that their stuff is better, and girls stuff sucks.

Even though it's all the same - it's all dolls, it's all containers on wheels, it's all something you push along that pops balls or blows bubbles, but fragile masculinity won't let us name them as anything less 'manly'

This would drive me nuts too OP. Everyday sexism.
The whole school fair stuff has been quite eye opening to me. Not to mention that 99.9% of all the volunteer work at our school is done by women. Where are the dads helping out? SAHMs and working mothers both help out so it’s not just about who can take time off paid work and that not being open to the Dads as an option.

nogrip - "That goes for either sex - if a girl is more into space and monsters and cars, the she can choose a book marked B"

Why are space and monsters and cars automatically marked B though?

I was given a climbing frame for my birthday as a child, must have been about six or so, and spent all my time jumping off the top of it practicing having no gravity because I wanted to go into space.

Space is not a 'boys thing'.

Horror is my favourite book genre. Monsters aren't a 'boys thing' either.

I drive a car.

Another way it could be done is in four or so bins with genre:
History
Fantasy
Action adventure
Animals
Others

Exactly - that is how bookshops categorise books and bookshops don't have girls and boys sections (least not the ones I shop in)

My son would be fucked off with a book about cars because he's not interested in them.

CapnHaddock get off your high horse, we've all seen the video, my son likes dinosaurs and cars and monster trucks and superheroes, his favourite colour is pink, he likes to watch My Little Pony and wants to take up ballet. He might be pleased with a My Little Pony book, but not one about Barbie. Therefore, we'd pick a book labelled 'B' as I know there's a broader range of things in that category that he'd be interested in. It's not bigotry.

The point of the stall was 'Don't judge a book by it's cover'. They were being encouraged to step outside their usual areas of interest.

True, but there's a difference between "outside their usual areas of interest" and "something they actively dislike". I too would have been gutted to get a book about fairies at that age tbh.

FWIW DS is now awake and apparently he doesn't like fairies "because they don't exist". I pointed out that talking trains don't exist either, but that's different "because trains do exist". 🤷🏼‍♀️

Tbf his primary days were a few years ago now.

DS doesn't much like books so gave his to big brother.

Oops! wandered into a topic where no one wants my opinion anyway.

Yes, lots of boys would be disappointed in a fairy book, but that's part of the fun of having the book wrapped up, surely.

DS1 would have been equally disappointed with dinosaurs or fairies as he only liked things with wheels.

DD had leaned by the age of 6yo to choose the "boy" option with things like this.

I think having a word with the teachers was sufficient, they can pass on your thoughts to the PTA.

Santa once gave DS a skipping rope and a dolly when he was in year 2. He wasn't very impressed and have them to his cousin.

He was never a guns and weaponry kid but maybe a little lego character or colour n g in boom would have done the trick.

It's one of those things that is really hard to get right to appeal to everyone.

I think maybe one option would have been to have left the G and B on the books but to put a sign up to the effect that they have been nominally distinguished but we know children like different things so all children are free to choose any book type.

Yes, I think there is policing of masculinity.
Sadly I know a family where the 4 year old little lad wanted a buggy, but there was no way his Mum or Dad were having their son pushing a buggy - despite the fact the Dad pushed one! Later the same lad wanted a handbag. That was also met with horror and in the end he was allowed a bag with a picture of a car on it - not really what he wanted.

It seems okay for girls to like dinosaurs or trucks or anything really - there are girls football teams and girls can go to Scouts, but it's not okay for boys to show they like ballet or dolls or prancing round in high heels.

It's widepread but I think gender stereotypes are especially strong in certain areas and amongst certain groups - and if your parents hold them, it's going to be hard for children to avoid them.

We have a 'pick a prize' type thing at my PTA, stereotypically 'girl' prizes are in pink sparkly paper, 'boys' in something blue with cars on and everything else in a brightly coloured paper.

Whilst its a lovely idea, there is SO much potential for this stall to go wrong - me and my kids are avid readers, and don't read within classic gender genres but I'd still avoid a total book lottery as I might be eclectic in my reading but I do have taste, thanks ;-)

I'm one of those saying offer to do it yourself because the PTA will (I'm also certain) have moved to gender specific + boy and girl because a) parents/children complained with little Johnny got a book about ballet and little Jenny got a book about Man U b) some books make it bleeding obvious they are 'meant for' boys or girls - it's a lot to ask children (who are defining what sex/gender mean) to actively go against the rules society has spent 5 years beating into them, when many adults can't. I bet that for every complaint that they need to be more gender neutral on the books stall, they get one that they need to be more compartmentalised (on sex and ages, for example). They are stuck as a lottery always means some people are disappointed, and disappointed 5 year olds cry. SO if you present another complaint, they'll sigh, maybe agree, but weigh you up with all the other complaints. If you present a solution - and offer to help with the hard lifting that solution involves - you'll get a yes. Remember that those running the PTA are volunteers, fitting it into their spare time too...what you're asking for is a lot of work, and people will naturally take the line of least resistance!

Have we all seen the video? Doesn't sound like it from some of the comments?

I quite like the sound of a mystery book. The best option would be to go for well known books that are known to be enjoyed by both girls and boys. Julia Donaldson, Shirley Hughes, Mog the cat etc are loved by both girls and boys. David Walliams, Roald Dahl, Wimpy Kid, Tom Gates, Famous Five etc are the same. For non fiction I would go for How to Draw type books.
However as this was a 30p stall I am assuming it was donated stock - so you are stuck with what you get. This would be better to do with teenagers as an experiment in trying out different genres and why some books are considered boy books or girl books.

DS1 did a tombola once, and won a hello-kitty skipping rope which the volunteer hurridly offered to swap for me - DS1 was already halfway across the playground yelling to his little brother what he had, and that skipping rope was used until poor hello kitty got smashed off the plastic handles. DS1 is oblivious to this stuff though. DS2 however, is a pink lover - but only at home, because at school, the teachers and kids have taken the mick out of him for his tastes.

I miss his old nursery where all the kids wore and played with anything, without comment.

my son would be a bit fucked off with a book about princesses, he really likes cars and dinosaurs

My DD would have been too. Actually, I'd have hoped that books about cars and certainly dinosaurs would have been in the G+B category, along with nearly everything else.
She'd probably have chosen from either that category or the B ones while discussing the idiocy of the labelling, as would happen in clothes and toy shops. She's had quite clear views on gender stereotyping since a yr 1 teacher told her 'girls can't be builders' . This sort of situation isn't a problem for a child like her, just a bit annoying. It's a problem for kids who are only encouraged to conform to gender stereotypes.

I'd have kicked off. Well, I'd have done what you did, OP. If you'd kept quiet and carried on dishing out the boy and girl books as instructed then you'd have been part of the problem. Well done for your small act of rebellion.
As for upsetting the ladies who set the stall up - well, you were as polite as you could be under the circumstances, and if you challenge ingrained attitudes you're going to get some resistance, because people don't like change.
As for the kids' feelings - well, it's a 30p lucky dip. The whole point is that you might get something really good or you might get a half-chewed copy of Topsy and Tim with crayon all over it, and learning to deal with the latter is probably a good life skill.

some books make it bleeding obvious they are 'meant for' boys or girls

Don't put these in a lucky dip stall then! They're probably not very good.

(My mum mixed up our stocking fillers by mistake one Xmas. How me and my sister laughed when my brother exclaimed, in appalled tones, "GIRLS' BRIEFS?!?")