Still cross about stall at primary school Spring Fair...WWYD?

[Wigeon]

So, one of the stalls at DD’s infant school yesterday was called “Don’t judge a book by it’s [sic] cover” and had a load of books wrapped in brown paper. You could choose a mystery book for 30p. BUT, each book had written on it either “B+G”, “B” or “G”, indicating whether the book was for boys or girls or both.

The irony when the stall was about not judging a book by its cover!

I started talking to two teachers who were standing nearby (women in their 20s), who both looked a bit embarrassed, one said “yes, I thought that was a bit odd”. Tried to ask them whether a book about trucks or dinosaurs wasn’t for my DD. What about a book about space, or the work of the police - was that a boy book or a girl book, or perhaps both? Then found a pen so I could re-label every book “B+G”, but stopped short of doing anything as it felt like I was interfering.

I think the stall had probably been organised by a well-meaning parent volunteer, so I think the teachers probably didn’t want to change it.

What would you have done? How come even young women who are in charge of teaching young children don’t feel this is sufficiently problematic to do something about it?

That goes for either sex - if a girl is more into space and monsters and cars, the she can choose a book marked B

Then why not mark them 'space/monsters/cars', not 'boy'?

But when 99% of young boys would say they prefer truck books to fairy books, that can’t possibly be personal choice.

I disagree, particularly in this day and age. Some of those children yes, but not all. In the big scheme of things I'm fairly gender critical, I was a "tomboy" as a child myself. That doesn't give me the right to deny my son his choices if they fall in line with gender stereotypes, so you certainly have no right to.

Tbh I suspect that if you made the stall genuinely gender neutral it would become very unpopular very quickly. It only takes a couple of disappointed children telling their friends and then no-one will bother.

if a girl is more into space and monsters and cars, the she can choose a book marked B

And we wonder why teenage girls are coming out as trans boys in droves... we've literally been telling them they have to choose to identify as a boy to express an interest in anything to do with science, tech, monsters, things that are not pink and covered in glitter!

Hesterton makes a good suggestion.

“Some people follow traditions and it is not your place to take away that choice.” But the issue of choice is already compromised; in these wrapped and labelled books someone has made a pre-determined choice about what a child may or may not like. So a choice is taken away.

nogrip a primary school fair is EXACTLY the time to go on about gender stereotypes. DD1 likes fairies, and transformers, and ballet, and rugby....etc, etc.

I spend half my bloody time trying to unpick the gender stereotyping she’s picking up at school.

I’m with the ‘good idea poorly executed’ crowd. The theme idea would have been better.

Also what BossWitch said. It’s SO depressing.

FGS, a primary school fair isn't the time to go on about gender stereotypes.

And yet, there they were, enforcing them!

As to boys not liking fairies, what the hell is Tree Fu Tom if not a fairy?

It starts at primary - emphasising that boys get books on engineering and mechanics, and mechanics, and girls get fluffy pink books about fairies and cup cakes. My previously pink loving 4 year old has come home saying that girls like pretty things and boys like cool things, and refusing to wear his previously beloved pink gloves to school, and that's with a family who's as non-conforming as hell. It has to fucking stop. Colours, subjects, and toys are for everyone

I've been thinking about this recently, as I've been going back and reading some of the classic Sci-Fi I read when I was a kid. Frankly, I'm astounded I got anywhere, because there's virtually no women in these books, and when they are there, they're shallow characters, there to provide a love interest or prop up the male hero. Foundation for goodness sake didn't even have a woman speak for the first 2 books! And don't get me started on Heinlein who reading again was a grooming misogynistic creep.

I completely understand where you are coming from.

I hear your point about being overworked and volunteering in the area of gender equality. Would it be worth penning a note to the head teacher on the general subject and perhaps encouraging the staff to put this at the forefront of their decision making? and then also raising the issue with the PTA for discussion at one of their meetings so that the PTA can consider whether activities can be gender neutral. Even if this results in one or two small changes, or makes people think, you will have made a small step forward.

Ffs if a boy likes reading flower fairy books he's a boy who likes flower fairy books, he isn't a girl. And who the hell would say books about space, dinosaurs and trucks 'aren't for girls?' There are plenty of women astronauts, women archaeologists, women HVG drivers, they aren't men. Label with the subject and accept any sex can enjoy any subject, job done. No wonder girls are so unhappy and turning to the trans narrative when they're being given such awful messages.

Nogrip, I'd love to know where IS a better place to challenge gender stereotypes than in a primary school setting.
The whole point of the brown paper covers is to open the readers' minds to authors/covers/genres they might not previously have considered, so if that is not something your children is interested in, don't waste your money. I expect the packs of books that were used lent themselves to gender labelling unfortunately.
Op, I would always feedback any stereotyping to a school/PTA. I know some people think it isn't a problem but all the little things add up to a big picture.

I'm still wondering when someone's going to publish The Lists from which so many are working. The ones that lead to crap like this.

I don't know, my son would be a bit fucked off with a book about princesses, he really likes cars and dinosaurs. But I suppose that's because I'm a diabolical parent.

Sounds a daft idea for a stall in the first place- what would be the chance of anyone picking a book they actually liked? Why not just sell the books as seen then everyone can choose a book they like and no need to categorise them by gender at all.

OP, you are most definitely NBU! This sort of stereotyping does my head in!

A book is a book is a book and the idea of 'pre-deciding' what is for girls or for boys is ludicrous.

I am a teacher and it is so sad when children as young as 5 say something is 'for girls' or something else is 'for boys' - I always ask them why they think that. Rarely do they know.

We have regular chats about who likes certain things - stuff like 'ballet' is a big divider, because most of the boys all react with horror when they are asked. I show them some short videos of exceptionally strong male dancers, doing incredible feats of pirouetting and leaping and suddenly there are several who think ballet is 'cool' or might not like it much still, but at least understand that ballet isn't just pink frilly dresses and women dancers.

Gender stereotyping is sickening. And adding to gender confusion.

*if a girl is more into space and monsters and cars, the she can choose a book marked B

And we wonder why teenage girls are coming out as trans boys in droves... we've literally been telling them they have to choose to identify as a boy to express an interest in anything to do with science, tech, monsters, things that are not pink and covered in glitter!*

Yes! Exactly this!

And the other way round. My son is constantly being told at school (by other children) that he is a 'girl' because he loves fairies and pink and glitter. It upsets him, he has told me categorically he does not want to be a girl, he is very happy as a boy, he wants to be a boy, a boy who likes pink.

I can't get too bothered.

When my dd was little she would have picked the B book because she knew (and I knew) she hated pink and princesses and would want the chance of a more interesting book to her. We shopped in the 'boy' clothes section fir the same reason without much angst.

I'm guessing the B+G books were generally gender neutral like Famous Five or Harry Potter etc?

My dd is now 13. Still owns no skirts or dresses but flirts with a bit of mascara and has a strong developing feminist mind. She still very much a girl. I was just never very fussy about this kind of thing.

Your daughter should have picked from the B section or B + G.

Genuinely don't see what your problem is?

Maybe next time you could volunteer and put the world to rights...

My son would be fucked off with a book about cars because he's not interested in them.

Time to dust off this video again - it's only 3 minutes' long - for those of you who think what your boys and girls like is innate: www.facebook.com/bbctwo/videos/10155359731070659/

That doesn't give me the right to deny my son his choices if they fall in line with gender stereotypes, so you certainly have no right to.
The point of the stall was 'Don't judge a book by it's cover'. They were being encouraged to step outside their usual areas of interest.

*if a girl is more into space and monsters and cars, the she can choose a book marked B

And we wonder why teenage girls are coming out as trans boys in droves... we've literally been telling them they have to choose to identify as a boy to express an interest in anything to do with science, tech, monsters, things that are not pink and covered in glitter!* HEAR HEAR!!

Part of the problem is that the books themselves are polarised by gender stereotypes - flower fairies versus dinosaur cove.

JK Rowling and MG Leonard both wrote under gender-neutral presentations of their names to ensure their books had universal appeal. My DD is an admirer of female authors but these two fall short of her benchmark as the main characters are male.

Wigeon - absolutely agree that you should raise this at the next PTA. If they're going to go to the trouble of wrapping the books up, then they shouldn't stick them in sex boxes.

It's a bit like a raffle really. I've often won a prize of something I didn't particularly want or like. So what? You just give it to someone who does

This is about policing masculinity. Girls might like fairies but can be interested in a book about trains. But we have to teach boys that a book about fairies is kryptonite to them and they must never ever touch it. They pick that message up pretty quickly especially when we bend over backwards never to put them in the danger zone.

Another way it could be done is in four or so bins with genre:
History
Fantasy
Action adventure
Animals
Others

This. Just colour code or sort by roughly what it’s aboit. So blue is space, green is nature, whatever.

I agree with hesterton.

Not quite this same thing but you might be interested in this (link is to YouTube).

This woman and her daughter looked at a large bookshelf and removed the books.

First they removed books with no male characters (3 books), then with no female characters (73 books), then books which have female characters who don't speak in the book, then took the books about princesses away.

They're left with a small handful of books left on the shelf. It's a video to promote another book, Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls, but it's quite startling to watch how quickly that bookshelf empties once they start looking for interesting female characters who speak.

The arguments I've had with my mother because I've bought my son a 'girls' book. Clarice Bean is a girls book apparently. Doesn't matter that he enjoys the books. I made the bookseller in Waterstones laugh by pointing out you read with your eyes not your ovaries.

Surely the idea of not judging a book by it's cover is to get something you wouldn't normally choose and give it a go? As long as it was at the right reading level, which I'm sure they could do in a school.

They could have written the suggested year group on the book, or the reading band level they thought might enjoy it.

I was thinking about what we read to our son. I remember he got Martin Waddel's Little Bear books, Farmer Duck and Owl Babies which he loved, loads of (really boring but he loved them) Apple Tree Farm (?) and Postman Pat, a really lovely series about Percy the Park Keeper. And so on

We moved on to children's classics like Winnie the Pooh (cue husband telling me endlessly how funny it was - yes I know dear), Charlotte ' s Web, (big hit) Narnia (miss) Wind in the Willows, loads of children's versions of Greek, Roman and Norse myths, Oscar Wilde's fairy stories , Hans Andersen ( he really like a gorgeous version of The Snow Queen illustrated by PJ Lynch and Grimm. (The liking for fairy stories and myths meant that as a teenage boy he read and enjoyed Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber and Heroes and Villains)

I would never have thought of buying him books for boys

Having said that I don't think I have ever met a female adult reader who enjoys Ernest Hemingway, Roth, Mailer and similar grand men of American literature.