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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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TreesAgreen · 22/03/2018 20:21

You've been warned

😂😂😂

Jog on

WiggyPig · 22/03/2018 20:23

Wow. Much legal, so nonsense.

I'll come back to this later with some actual law just in case anybody's still reading but the tl;dr is that the OP has hugely misunderstood the Equality Act, and is using examples from countries where it doesn't exist anyway.

ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo · 22/03/2018 20:25

Apparently we need a new name now to differentiate between females and females with penises.

Females with penises? You mean strap-ons? Or transmen?

averylongtimeago · 22/03/2018 20:27

CIS women?

Not here mate, now just piss off.

AnneElliott · 22/03/2018 20:33

So is the op coming back do you think?

PositivelyPERF · 22/03/2018 20:36

This has given me the best laugh. Thank you so much little man and little professional man. I was feeling a bit tired with it all today, after reading about JKR, but this thread has given me the shot in the arm that I needed. You know they’re getting worried when they send professional men to try to gaslight and frighten us. This isn’t an abusive marriage lads, you don’t get to push us around.

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 20:36

UpstartCrow - Maria Miller is a backbench MP. The government has decided to ignore a lot of her recommendations.

"That is a flat out lie." You accuse me of lying but you do not offer any legal analysis or legal authorities yourself.

OP posts:
MickHucknallspinkpancakes · 22/03/2018 20:37

Thanks for the warning, professional man.

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women
Fekko · 22/03/2018 20:37

does the post come with a badge and uniform?

gingergenius · 22/03/2018 20:41

So with all the masses of resources that the police have, where they DON'T prosecute sexual assault and rape because of 'lack of evidence' I'd be astounded if the cops suddenly had the resource to monitor Mumsnet and prosecute people for expressing an opinion!!!!

But good luck 'ProMan'. We'll invest a costume for you!

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 22/03/2018 20:42

Oh my days, this thread has it all!! Professional man!!🤣🤣 Is man another word for wanker these days??

gingergenius · 22/03/2018 20:42

Invent. It was going so well!!! ShockHmmConfused

gingergenius · 22/03/2018 20:43

If I wear a pinstripe suit, and a bowler hat, and carry a black umbrella and a briefcase, can I identify as a professional man???

UpstartCrow · 22/03/2018 20:52

Oh my head hurts. The law today does allow people to self identify into any space they like, or work as a gender fluid police officer.

'Wheres the evidence?' you cry, while denouncing women who enter changing rooms as men.
Men can now access the women's pond on Hampstead Heath, if they self identify as women.
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/09/debate-over-inclusion-of-trans-women-in-women-only-spaces-intensifies

If you think we are making a fuss over swimming pools wait til you hear what we are doing about Labour letting men on to Women Only Shortlists.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/self-defining-trans-women-to-be-allowed-on-labours-all-women-parliamentary-shortlists-partys-nec-set-to-announce-equalities-committee_uk_5a9d94f4e4b0479c0255e9c2

twitter.com/hashtagbroom/status/952169141405995008

TheClitterati · 22/03/2018 20:54

Fuck off with the cis-woman bs.

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women
Juells · 22/03/2018 20:56

Is there really a GoFundMe rule banning "campaigns for the legal defence of intolerance of gender identity"? (per tweet by Matt Broomfield linked above)

Mner · 22/03/2018 21:06
Grin
BeingAProffesionalMAN · 22/03/2018 21:08

Thought I'd try this on for size, and watch every one listen in awe to what I speak.

Take heed mere wimin, I have the Power of greyskull

MickHucknallspinkpancakes · 22/03/2018 21:10

Can we change the title of the thread now from

#manfriday
To

#professionalmanfriday?

MistressDeeCee · 22/03/2018 21:11

As if cis-gendered women won't be harmed by the nonsense that is Self-ID anyway.

Women don't need to think for perverts - perverts seem pretty much well able to find outlets for their degenerate behaviour.

Thankfully I only skimmed your waffly nonsense anyway.

What the fuck is cis-gendered? Is it let's create a stupid

Sounds and writes like a man but wants to be a woman. You fucking wish, mate. In fact, wish until you shuffle off this mortal coil. You will never be a woman.

& even if people humour you to your face, they'll still be thinking "bloke in a dress". You'll look like what you are - which is, not a woman.

Ridiculous people

Should1stayorshould1go · 22/03/2018 21:14

how does one become a professional man
do I have to play up through the ranks in the amateur leagues or something? or do you get scouted for extreme man talent and potential?

SimonBridges · 22/03/2018 21:18

All I know is that professional men get paid more than professional women.

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 21:23

If someone pays you for being a man you lose your amateur standing.

MickHucknallspinkpancakes · 22/03/2018 21:25

Then you can't enter into the Olympic Mansplaining team sadly. Sad

Juells · 22/03/2018 21:26

This thread is pure gold