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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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6
Judashascomeintosomemoney · 22/03/2018 19:31

Have any cisgendered women been on to thank you yet? I’m a woman so obviously this isn’t aimed at me.

IamXXHearMeRoar · 22/03/2018 19:34

D minus, now cis off OP.

LineysRun · 22/03/2018 19:36

Fuck 'cisgendered'

2rebecca · 22/03/2018 19:39

No idea who these cisgendered women are.

ProperLavs · 22/03/2018 19:40

Just stop it with the cis shit. It's women.
We are women. We were born women.
No man who says he is a woman is actually a woman.
He is a man and he will be one until the day he dies.
Deep down he knows this that is why so many of them are bleating on about it.
Thank god I longer use Dulwich baths.

ProperLavs · 22/03/2018 19:43

That little Britain 'we are ladies' sketch sums it all up really. Spot on. It was ridiculous then and it's ridiculous now.

SnibbleAgain · 22/03/2018 19:46

"If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms."

???????????????????????????????

I have NEVER seen anyone say that it is legal for women to commit voyerism or indecent exposure. And that therefore if a man IDs as a woman then they can go around wanking at people (women / children let's be honest most men are too scared to wank at other grown men unless they're in a place where that's part of the point Grin) and the law can't touch them!

Where has this idea even come from, to make it into this retutation post? Is it "just make up something no-one has said, and say actually you don't need to worry about that, and it will serve the twin purpose of making my opponents look stupid for believing it and me look good for reassuring them"????????

I think the only people who believe that women are free to commit crimes all over the place and get special treatment are MRAs... So, um. Well.

nooka · 22/03/2018 19:47

Generally speaking the people who post on here and describe / identify themselves as cis seem to embrace the idea that self identified men have transformed into women and therefore would presumably be happy if the Man Friday campaign results in more men using spaces previously designated as female only. In their minds men who say they are women so not allowing them into women's spaces is ever so mean.

Un woke men and women on the other hand are generally not so keen on suspending their powers of observation and would prefer to keep sex segregation where safety or dignity may be at risk.

Speedy85 · 22/03/2018 19:47

Croft v Royal Mail [2003] IRLR 592 was superseded by the Equality Act 2010. The law that the ruling was based on has been repealed. It is an historical ruling that is no longer relevant

Well, I don’t quite agree with that. The Equality Act basically consolidates all the previous separate discrimination laws with very few substantive changes, so the same reasoning would apply.

However, that case is not relevant because it concerns the minimum needs to be done to avoid discrimination against transpeople. The Swim England guidance have gone beyond the minimum required by the Equality Act 2010.

I applaud those involved in the ManFriday movement for highlighting the flawed and dangerous guidance.

Sensefinder · 22/03/2018 19:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SusanBunch · 22/03/2018 19:49

It literally is just like Little Britain. The only difference is that now we cannot laugh about it and we have to accept that it’s real.

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 19:50

Cis boils my piss.

Do one.

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 19:51

Boils my piss so much I won’t read the OP so I have no idea what you’re on about.

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 19:51

But Man Friday is fab so just from the thread title I know you’re spouting bollocks.

SnibbleAgain · 22/03/2018 19:52

Most men are AOK so the man friday thing is quite good in that it shows that if the shit hits the fan and all the female spaces let in self id people, then we are safer in the mens.

Although it does beg the question, if a pair of women can go in the mens changing rooms, get changed, tops off, go in the pool, and the men have all failed to assault them, why do TW think they are at risk so much? Most men are fine. A sadly not that small minority are not. Letting them self ID into the women's, means the creepy ones will mostly be in the women's, they are the dangerous ones that the TW are apparently trying to get away from. So actually the men's will be super safe, and teh women's super unsafe.

Result Confused

Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/03/2018 19:53

#manfriday
If they're trying to pull you down you know you're doing something right Flowers

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 19:53

Misgendering women as cis is literal violence.

Nuffaluff · 22/03/2018 19:54

Ah, so this is the new tactic.
You think we’re stupid don’t you.
Try harder.

SnibbleAgain · 22/03/2018 19:54

Sensefinder we have gender fluid people openly using the facilities they choose and they are not being prosecuted for anything.

How do you know that the women in Man Friday aren't gender fluid and simply struggling to come to terms with it, and their internalised transphobia is leading them to use this convoluted way to express their true selves?

I find your remarks bigoted, hostile and exclusionary.

Silk29 · 22/03/2018 19:54

'cis' = Construction Industry Scheme. OP, I recommend you pop over to the CIS website and give them a heads up.

Hypermice · 22/03/2018 19:54

Nobody will be prosecuted - because self ID allows them to do this.

I would say this ManFriday stunt, it's bordering on illegal as Police are reading this knowing many are falsely creating opposite genders for an hour or so in order to effectively harass men or women, which ever it may be and to cause intentional offence.

Yes that’s exactly the point she is making 🤦🏻‍♀️
She’s exposing the idiocy of it all. And the police can do nowt because the law will allow self ID.

I had to smile at professional man. Do you have a certificate?

SnibbleAgain · 22/03/2018 19:55

Oh just noticed the opener:

"As a professional man,..."

Gold Grin

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 19:55

snibble. Someone actually said that the other week on MN about toilets. That actually the men’s toilets will be safer because all the male perverts are in the women’s claiming to be female.

tinytemper66 · 22/03/2018 19:55

What the eff is a cisgendered woman? If you mean a woman who was born a woman then just say so. There is nothing cis about me!

Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/03/2018 19:56

Interesting first post Sensefinder Hmm

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