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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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PositivelyPERF · 22/03/2018 19:57

As a professional man 🤣 oh my holy fuck, I’ve read it all now.

Quiet ‘ladies’ a professional man has entered the thread to mansplain to us silly women how to behave. 🤣

Hypermice · 22/03/2018 19:58

I’m imagining A kind Of Arnold Rimmer esque BSc (bronze swimming certificate.)

Bejazzled · 22/03/2018 19:59

What's a cisgendered woman? I don't think there are subsections of 'woman' so I assume the op means 'woman'

hipsterumlaut · 22/03/2018 19:59

I think we need to start a campaign tweeting every organisation in the world with the abbreviation CIS. Let them know what their women are doing when they're not at work! Could create some confusion and alert a few new audiences!?

Fekko · 22/03/2018 20:01

Is a professional man like the opposite of dame Edna Everidge?

For the purposes of tomorrow, call me... I can't really decide my manfriday name? I actually spent far too much time today pondering my name for tomorrow. Maybe Bernard?

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 20:02

Sense finder, you’re a total terf.

BarrackerBarmer · 22/03/2018 20:03

OP is wrong.

Any man can use a woman's space. It isn't illegal.
The only thing that stops them is
A. The potential of being ejected
B. Social disapproval
C. The risk of being charged with a related crime like voyeurism
D. The knowledge that any challenge they might make on their behalf would be defeated because of the same sex exemption in EA2010 IF it is applied.

It's never been illegal.
It's just that establishments were empowered to stop it and protected from prosecution if they did.

Juells · 22/03/2018 20:04

You've been warned, someone will be prosecuted

Fairenuff · 22/03/2018 20:04

If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

Oh right, so we can ask to see that document whenever we see a male bodied person in a female only space can we?

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 20:04

I am guessing that when transgender identified males picture a "cis woman" they are thinking porn actress.
My reason for this speculation is based on the way they describe those of us they call "TERF".

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 22/03/2018 20:04

ManFriday has got this being debated in the mainstream media. Goodbye #nodebate. Rock on ManFriday.

Most people do nothing but pick holes in the action of people who do do something, feeling all virtuous while doing fuck all themselves. Good on you for getting out there and doing something.

SimonBridges · 22/03/2018 20:06

And yes, perhaps there have been no account of perverts in women’s changing rooms, but consider this

We know that it’s not all men.
We know that our husbands and sons aren’t perverts.
Yet all women have been sexually assaulted in some way. From a ‘nice tits’ or ‘cheer up love’ to rape.
Every woman.
Every single woman.

It’s not all men but it is all women and because of this we deserve to be protected from men.

I’m sure that all transwoman get shit walking down the street too. Well welcome to our lives. We’ve been living it since we were children and we can’t id out of it.

Hypermice · 22/03/2018 20:08

You've been warned

And as always, when women don’t do what men want, the threats come out.

Fuck that, quite frankly. no we will not know our place.

Lovesagin · 22/03/2018 20:09

Professional Man 😂

As opposed to an Amateur Man.

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 20:10

As a professional man, I would say this ManFriday stunt, it's bordering on illegal as Police are reading this knowing many are falsely creating opposite genders for an hour or so in order to effectively harass men or women, which ever it may be and to cause intentional offence.

Tell that to the gender fluid police officer and the rest of the professional men who take their fetishes to work because these bizarre laws have given them protection to do so.

MrsJoshDun · 22/03/2018 20:11

I wonder if I’m an amateur woman or a professional woman?

Lovesagin · 22/03/2018 20:13

Still laughing at the Professional Man.

Sorry, Professional Man, but, really? Professional Man?

Professional.

Man.

?

TerfsUp · 22/03/2018 20:14

You've been warned, someone will be prosecuted.

Gosh, I'm so frightened.

Juells · 22/03/2018 20:15

I suspect that the OP learned that the ManFriday stunt was thought up on Mumsnet, and decided to come and educate all those silly women who hadn't thought things through.

onedayiwillmissthis · 22/03/2018 20:16

I am woman. W O M A N.

I'll say it again.

W O M E N.

Take your 'cis' and shove it.

EmpressOfJurisfiction · 22/03/2018 20:17

I bet it takes a lot of training to become a professional man.

You'd have to be qualified in manspreading, mansplaining, manslamming, willy waving...

CadyHeron · 22/03/2018 20:17

No idea who these cisgendered women are.

Cisgendered women - women. Biological women. Female women.
Apparently we need a new name now to differentiate between females and females with penises.
Cis is bloody offensive.

SmufOrTerf · 22/03/2018 20:17

I'm scared too OK I'm not
Anyone nominating this thread for Classics ?

TerfsUp · 22/03/2018 20:17

As a professional man

Whatever they're paying you to be a man, it's too much.

Juells · 22/03/2018 20:18

As a professional man 🤣 oh my holy fuck, I’ve read it all now.

Oh no, I think I've pissed myself Blush

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