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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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TheShaniaTwainExperience · 23/03/2018 13:30
Grin
Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 13:51

I have reported that post as deliberately offensive.

Hypermice · 23/03/2018 13:55

On domestic abuse, the majority of incidents are initiated by women

Errr. No. Nope. Statistics say otherwise.

Oh wait! Do you mean if the women hadn’t opened their silly mouths / asked not to be raped/ not nagged then the poor man wouldn’t have had to hit them? Righto.

We do seem to know how to handle ourselves as an angry mob actually. Synchronised pitchfork practice is in the park every third Friday followed by coffee and buns. You’d be welcome - it’s just over the lake of Male tears and turn left at the wailing harpy enclosure. At the equinox we dance naked.

Your mask is slipping somewhat ;) you don’t really like ladies very much do you?

vesuvia · 23/03/2018 13:56

Sensefinder wrote - "pretty much the entire world's infrastructure that you enjoy today is because of the hard work of men"

All the news reports of crumbling/failing infrastructure across the world - fake news?

AngryAttackKittens · 23/03/2018 13:58

He'll be on about the Titanic next.

gingergenius · 23/03/2018 13:59

@Sensefinder maybe you'd find this interesting. If we're not 'womaning' properly???? go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=transsingleblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/make-love-with-transgender-females/

Lovesagin · 23/03/2018 14:07

Awwww he's cute :)

Can we keep him? Pllllleeeeeeeeeaaaaaase????

I promise I'll change the bedding and clean the cage!

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 23/03/2018 14:10

On domestic abuse, the majority of incidents are initiated by wome.

Obviously you do need men in control because you don't know how to handle yourselves as an angry mob. Spending time doing some work or educating children would be far more beneficial.

I didn't find that offensive. I found it hilarious. I genuinely gave a little snort out loud. Sense is either a troll or unable to read the papers, any history books nor use his eyes and ears and certainly doesn't know any professional women.

I want to hear his opinions on whether his MIL should own a loo brush, do his children drink fruit shoot, would he lend money to an alcoholic sibling and how he negotiates who gets what Christmas holiday time off with his colleagues.

misscockerspaniel · 23/03/2018 14:17

I stopped reading when I reached the word cisgendered. Then I did a search on the poster's name. And guess what, there isn't a posting history. Give me ManFriday over a Friday lecture any day.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 14:20

And guess what, there isn't a posting history.

There's no posting history for SarahAr, either. How odd.

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 14:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/03/2018 14:23

This behaviour would never occur if the roles were reversed.

My eyes hurt. Empathy, my arse.

CoolCarrie · 23/03/2018 14:25

Cis is offensive to me, a ridiculous, unnecessary prefix.

Hypermice · 23/03/2018 14:28

This behaviour would never occur if the roles were reversed.

No, men tend not to engage in sarcasm and reasoned debate when they want to silence women. They just hit us.

You’ve not been met with hostility. You’ve had your arguments demolished and been shown up. Then you started sulking because the ladies aren’t listening to you like you deserve because you’re a man.

Away to reddit or 4chan or wherever your brethren lurk. You can have lots of nice boys agreeing with you there, and it’s a harpy-free zone.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 14:29

He's told us:

"You shouldn't be listened too."

UpstartCrow · 23/03/2018 14:30

Sensefinder
I'll give you a heads up, killing women isnt a great way to 'control' us.
2 women a week in the UK, 3 a day in the US. It isnt working as an example to the rest of us.
Maybe men could try being more law abiding and less violent.

Also, this isn't an angry mob. If your sensibilities are that delicate, maybe you'd prefer the kind of uncritical support you'd get on a men's support forum.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 14:31

Professional Man, please don't tell me you're flouncing. We've been having so much fun.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/03/2018 14:38

Don't disturb the Professional Man, he has Important Professional Man Stuff to do.

Datun · 23/03/2018 14:46

Strewth, that was even more predictable than I anticipated.

And much quicker than normal.

The next post, should there be one, will be loaded with extra misogyny and contain the words...hold on...ah yes...cunt and/or bitch.

Or possibly c*t and b*ch because, I'm sure professional man will be absolutely aghast that he is allowed to swear on here amongst, you know, grown-up women.

Or possibly witch. Vipers maybe?

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 14:48

Lots of laughs though eh.

PositivelyPERF · 23/03/2018 14:51

I was having a stressful day, but just sat down for a coffee and Mumsnet. How could you all upset that poor man? 😢 You didn’t appreciate his professional advice and now you’ve gone and ‘made him’ get angry. Didn’t you know that for every angry man you stand up to, an MRA scrotum shrivels up and dies?

Contented sigh ☕️ 🍪 🍪😁

LangCleg · 23/03/2018 15:07

It doesn't take long, does it?

IllBeAtTheBarIfYouNeedMe · 23/03/2018 15:14

I’m a little bit saddened I missed the professional mans meltdown. I knew it was coming. I was just waiting. And then I missed it.

Story of my life.

I doth my cap to you all ladies chaps. Hilariously handled

Tanith · 23/03/2018 15:25

“So there should be at least a handful of transwomen on the Labour all-women shortlists; don't be greedy now, equality for all.”

True equality for all would mean more all-woman shortlists created, some of which are open to transwomen.
Strange that only women are expected to share their precious few places and men are not affected in any way. Some might say that Equality is not the goal after all.