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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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CadyHeron · 23/03/2018 12:06

Definitely not a man hater here too, love 'em. They're not all horrible.
Regularly stick up for them on threads on MN too when the topic seems to be double standards as it's a bloke posting.
You're going to find all women (and a lot of men too) are going to be sticking up for women's rights though.

SusanBunch · 23/03/2018 12:07

I realise that I'm amongst predominantly misandrists on here that propagate misandrist hatred. Its not difficult to see why there is four times more incidences of misandry than misogeny

LOL what 'incidents'? Not heard that one before and I am in bed sick so I need some entertainment.

TheShaniaTwainExperience · 23/03/2018 12:08

‘Cisgendered’ EW

Lovesagin · 23/03/2018 12:09

Sensefinder, you really should try some self esteem or empowering type counselling courses, it's not good if you're one of those people who are easily led by others (ie talk of becoming bitter towards the women in your life by being around bitterness on here,although where this is I have no idea)

I've never had cause to seek them out myself but I'm sure there will be some easily available in your area. Hope you get sorted :)

PsychoPumpkin · 23/03/2018 12:10

I’m no man hater. I’m married to a wonderful man. I love my dad, my brother is amazing and I have a glorious little boy who I hope grows up to be just like his father.

Most men are stand up guys.

My issue is having to move along to make May for men who now believe they are women, having to ignore biologyband having the term cis foisted upon me without my consent.

I’m perfectly happy for trans people who quietly live their lives while letting women live theirs.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/03/2018 12:12

Nah, this is more of a warm-up for ManFriday. Gives those mockery muscles a good stretch before you get started, you know. It was kind of the Professional Man to offer himself up as a practice dummy.

Popchyk · 23/03/2018 12:26

"While I can hold my own all day long on here ..."

Yes, we know poppet.

One-handed typing is a sadly under-appreciated skill.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 12:26

It was kind of the Professional Man to offer himself up as a practice dummy

I'll have you know that Mr Man is a Professional Man and, therefore, a Professional Dummy. None of this amateur practice silliness, please.

ContemporaryPankhurst · 23/03/2018 12:28

'Cis', a term taken out of context from chemistry, posits, in the OP's use of the word, that gender - a tool of oppression socially constructed within patriarchal systems to the detriment of women in order to exploit and control reproduction - is innate.
'Cis'/trans-gender - a way for people who haven't done the reading to say 'she wanted it, they all did'.
So as others have commented, you lost me at 'Cis'.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 12:29

"While I can hold my own all day long on here ..."

That's what proper toilet-training will do for a person. It's a very important Professional Man skill. Also essential is washing one's hands afterwards.

slug · 23/03/2018 12:29

Reminds me of this

TheShaniaTwainExperience · 23/03/2018 12:30

Why can’t she spell?

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 12:33

TerfsUp

Laughed my head off.

swivelchair · 23/03/2018 12:35

While I can hold my own all day long on here

You haven't shown any proof of that yet - you wanna have another go?

As to your misandrists comment, you've really got that a bit wrong - you see we're here for a chat, so we chat to you, but in real life, you wouldn't even be on our radar, you just don't matter - it's not hatred, it's disinterest in mediocre men, of which there are so many you just fade into the background.

My partner, my sons, my brothers in law, the men I work with they're lovely on the whole, I don't feel any systematic hatred of them. In fact, unlike you, I'm able to see people as individuals, and not paint the whole of feminism as 'those bloody women who don't agree with me', or every man as 'those nasty people who are responsible for 98% of violent crime' no matter who true both of those statements are.

UpstartCrow · 23/03/2018 12:35

Top job to all the Man Friday posters this lovely Friday morning.! You are really convincing Star

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 23/03/2018 12:39

“Thanks Speedy85”

From me too.

ASatisfyingThump · 23/03/2018 12:43

Still pissing myself at the idea of Mumsnet as fluffy. There's nothing fluffy about motherhood, it's hard graft whichever way you do it. I wouldn't expect a Professional Man to realise that though, he's too busy thinking of all the wonderful modern infrastructure solely created by men. Except it wasn't. Solar power, dishwashers, central heating, windscreen wipers, computer coding languages, WiFi - all features of modern life, all invented by women, and these are just the ones we know about. I'd bet money on women being involved in the invention of most household labour saving devices, if only because I can't imagine most men giving a damn.

FeministBadger · 23/03/2018 12:53

I am not a law student or practicing lawyer but I am legally qualified. says the OP. My money's on Shon Faye...

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 12:54

I am not a law student or practicing lawyer but I am legally qualified

Legally qualified to do what? Be an electrician? A plumber? A hairdresser?

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 23/03/2018 12:56

How was I abusive, Professional Man? I was simply asking you why you felt it was fine to claim credit for other men's achievements yet no share of the blame for other men's abusive behaviour ??

And it speaks volumes about how weak minded you are that you think a few anonymous women on the internet might so offend you that it would have an impact on how you see and treat the women in your own life. Now THAT'S abusive.

Hypermice · 23/03/2018 13:06

I realise that I'm amongst predominantly misandrists on here that propagate misandrist hatred.

Nonono. Logical error.

Women not agreeing with you is not the same as misandry.

You are expecting to be agreed with, and when you are not agreed with you are committing the logical error of not examining your argument for weakness but instead deflecting outwards into those who do not agree with you.

It’s exactly the same mindset as those red pill men who would like women to fuck them, and when women won’t fuck them, they don’t look in the mirror and say ‘right, what am I doing wrong here?’ They say ‘all women are frigid bitches.’

If you honestly think misandry is 4x more prevalent than misogyny and hate for women you need your head looking at. Two women A WEEK are killed in the UK by partners in domestic violence situations. 98% of violent crime is committed by men.

Women taking the piss out of you may harm your fragile ego, but Misogyny kills women. What’s that saying? Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them.

You’re far from holding your own (unless that’s why your spelling has gone to pot.)

OlennasWimple · 23/03/2018 13:14

Is the "sea of bitterness" made from rivers of male tears?

IfNot · 23/03/2018 13:24

Does anyone remember that show Puppetry of the Penis?
This thread is like Sock Puppetry of the Penis.. Grin

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 13:26

That's a Professional Penis, when it's attached to a Professional Man.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 23/03/2018 13:29

Have name changed in honour.

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