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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Man Friday campaign is likely to harm cisgendered women

340 replies

SarahAr · 22/03/2018 18:44

Although I applaud the audacity and bravery of the women who decided to identify as men and use the mens' changing room at the Dulwich Leisure Centre, sadly their campaign is misguided and is likely to lead to harm to cisgendered women.

The only law in England and Wales that gives someone who was born male the right to use female spaces, such as changing rooms, is the Equality Act. On the face of it the act only applies to those who propose to undergo, are undergoing, or have undergone a process to reassigned their gender. To understand how it is interpreted though you need to look at the case law. The leading case is Croft v Royal Mail and although it applied to an earlier statute in a slightly different context, it is still good law. This case held that a transwomen would only acquire the right to use the women's toilet at work when she was significantly advanced in her transition.

So the law today does not allow men (or women) to self-id their way into the opposite gender's changing room. And the government has stated that it is not going to change the Equality Act so the law in this area will not change. And as far as I know, no pervert has succeeded in using the Equality Act to access a changing room in the 7 years that the Equality Act 2010 has been law.

The government has announced however that it is considering simplifying the process of changing legal gender under the Gender Recognition Act. However, and this is the crucial point, if a man changes his legal gender to female it does not give him access to female spaces.

There is a myth that with self-identification a man would be allowed to say that he is a women - say on Friday afternoons. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If the process in Ireland is followed a legal instrument - a statutory declaration - has to be filled out in front of a solicitor or other suitably qualified person. And the wording has to say he has a "settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender of female for the rest of [his] life". And lying on a statutory declaration in the UK is a criminal offence - punishable with up to 2 years in prison under the Perjury Act.

If a man were to change to his legal gender to female and sneak his way into the women's changing room it would still not prevent him from committing the offences of Voyeurism and Exposure. Both of these offences are drafted in gender neutral terms.

Not only is the Man Friday campaign unnecessary, it is positively harmful. The constant stream of articles in the media saying that men can identify as women on a Friday and use the women's changing rooms have two effects. Firstly, people who work in leisure centres believe this to be the law and stop challenging creepy guys trying to access the women's changing room. Secondly, it gives perverts the idea that they have the legal right to perform perverted acts. (they don't and these acts remain criminal offences)

And this is not just a theoretical analysis - this actually happened in Seattle, Washington. After a prolonged Republican media campaign stating that a new law allowed perverts to access the women's changing room, a man took them at their word and, claiming rights under the new law, decided to change with the women. And the sad thing is that the staff confused by the media coverage did nothing to stop him. But the kicker is that the new law did not allow a man to self-id his way into the women's changing room. And this is not my legal analysis - this is the legal analysis of the Washington State Human Rights Commission.

So in summary women's spaces are not threatened by either the current law or the government's proposed changes. However, if the Man Friday campaign plants the idea into people's minds that men can self-id their way into women's changing rooms, then expect to see perverts take them up on the idea.

OP posts:
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Fekko · 23/03/2018 08:24

Who said they despise men?

Speedy85 · 23/03/2018 08:32

UpstartCrow - men can access the women's bathing pond on Hampstead Heath, not because the law gives them this right, but because the authorities who manage the bathing pond have decided to permit it.

OP, this is the point. Swim England’s guidance suggested that men who had not had surgery could use women’s changing rooms, and that if women objected they would need to ge re-educated about ladydicks. My understanding is that guidance has now been withdrawn following the ManFriday stunt. Mission partially accomplished.

If the law changes, this kind of thing will become even more prevalent. Let’s not forget as well that there are some who want to scrap the sex-based exemptions which exist (including Maria Miller). Even if they are not scrapped, it takes a brave organisation to apply them. Women are not being protected.

Juells · 23/03/2018 08:47

I'm quite disappointed by your term 'male violence' when women have won the right to fight alongside men.

Good deflection there.

Datun · 23/03/2018 08:48

Perhaps someone with EA knowledge can help me with this:

The issue of women's biology being exclusionary. The issue of changing the language around women's biology.

Sex is a protected characteristic.

Telling women that their biology is exclusionary and therefore they can't talk about it, or have to change the wording - is that not discrimination, based on a woman's sex?

Or does the fact that theoretically they can say the same thing to men make it okay?

Because obviously people aren't saying that to men, but in theory, they can.

Or can it be considered discriminatory based on the specific language being targetted, like vaginas and uteruses, something that men don't possess.

Most women are fully aware that sexism is rank in almost every part of this ideology, and should therefore have the potential to be addressed by equality law.

I'm trying to work out how.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 23/03/2018 08:57

And if it's has escaped you, pretty much the entire world's infrastructure that you enjoy today is because of the hard work of men, the very men you appear to dispise.

Why do men like you always try to piggyback onto the achievements of far more talented men than yourself, yet when you are being put in the same class as the men who rape and murder you whine NAMALT??

I never understand that. Want to bask in the reflected glow of Einstein and Churchill? Claim your share of Hitler too then!

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 09:13

Let's hope he's got a secretary for that shit.

I think he is the secretary. Mind you, a professionally qualified secretary.

Speedy85 · 23/03/2018 09:23

Telling women that their biology is exclusionary and therefore they can't talk about it, or have to change the wording - is that not discrimination, based on a woman's sex?

It totally depends on who’s saying what and in what context. If it’s just Munroe Bergdorf whining on Twitter about women with uterus signs at the women’s march, then everyone should just ignore that person and carry on. What they say isn’t a breach of the EA, but nor does it have any weight whatsoever.

The EA bans discrimination on the basis of certain protected characteristics (eg sex, race, age etc) in certain contexts (eg employment, services, schools etc) subject to certain exemptions.

There’s things going on like the NHS referring to “pregnant people” rather than “pregnant women”, but that’s not a violation of the Act. That’s just the NHS being a bit vague in their language and nobody is stopping you referring to yourself as a “pregnant woman”.

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 10:32

This reply has been deleted

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AngryAttackKittens · 23/03/2018 10:44

(Yawns)

slug · 23/03/2018 10:51

While you're on your way to your professional manly duties, spare a moment for the woman, well girl actually, who was made to sacrifice her life this week

Datun · 23/03/2018 11:19

Thanks Speedy85.

Juells · 23/03/2018 11:21

Why does a 'professional man' have nothing better to do than to come onto a message board for women, and mansplain inclusion and fair treatment for all?

Go and have a wank, you'll feel better.

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 11:27

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AssassinatedBeauty · 23/03/2018 11:32

@Sensefinder report any abusive posts, they will be deleted.

It is comments like yours that damages the relationships between women and men, rather than improving them. Listen more, talk less.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 11:32

sensefinder, I hope your professional duties do not include copy editing or proof reading. Or anything to do with writing. Or using common sense or logic.

Datun · 23/03/2018 11:33

Women across the world are increasingly turning their backs on the toxic beliefs that are crystallised on this forum and others.

Do you have any idea quite how many men come on here and say exactly the same thing, with tedious regularity.

What about the war?
Who invented everything?
What about custody cases?
Everyone hates feminists.
False rape.
Women kill too.

Liberally sprinkled with

Speaking as a man...
and
Well actually...

With monotonous predictability.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 11:34

There have been some great comments made by some contributors and it's a shame their value has been lost in a sea of bitterness.

Yes, but we keep keeping on despite accusations of transphobia and bigotry. Good of you to notice that.

Hypermice · 23/03/2018 11:35

sensefinder

Plenty of women get their arses handed to them on many threads on MN. You seem to think that as a Male, your opinion is somehow protected from the general ‘robust’ debate on here. It isn’t. If you say ridiculous things you will get toasted. Just like a woman would.

Enjoy mumsnet. Women here don’t roll over and do as you say.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 23/03/2018 11:35

Thats scaring the shit out of me as well terf

Especially the inability to understand simple points

Anyway, anyone who has to state they are a professional man, as opposed one assumes to an amateur one, is probably going to struggle slightly

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 11:49

Its probably his tinder name

Sensefinder · 23/03/2018 11:54

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Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 23/03/2018 11:56

Bingo.

Popchyk · 23/03/2018 11:57

Speaking of Tinder.

I wonder if the TRAs will go after Tinder and other sites in order to ensure that straight blokes on there cannot discriminate against transwomen who want to date straight blokes.

Because that would make for some interesting first dates.

MsMcWoodle · 23/03/2018 12:00

Sensefinder - Don't hate men at all. Married to a lovely one.
He is very firmly on our side re this.

MsMcWoodle · 23/03/2018 12:02

Much as I have enjoyed the men coming on here and telling us what to do, I'm a bit concerned that some threads are being used to deflect us away from our manly duty this manfriday.

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