Lesbian's and the Trans debate

[DJLippy]

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were regarding the impacts that transgenderism was having specifically on lesbians and the 'erasure' of lesbian identity. I am concerned that many public debates are ignoring their concerns. I don't think the LGBT 'community' is representing them properly and I think that women need to understand and address the specific concerns they have. Lesbian, bi-sexual and straight women should speak up together because I think that we have an insight that men lack.

If you haven't done so already I would ask everyone to check out Magdalen Berns who speaks so eloquently about the trans debate but it's impacts on young gay and lesbian people.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ

I think there are two main areas that I have identified are of particular concern.

1. The extremely high (2:1) rates of referrals to gender-dysphoria clinics of girls and young lesbians. Heather-Brunswick Evans work is very interesting here, especially as regards the impact that porn and an overly-sexualised media is having female self-identity. I have heard people express fears that this is in effect 21st century conversion therapy whereby young gay and lesbian children will be effectively steralised and neutered.

2. The encroachment of transwomen on lesbian spaces . I think that Reiley J Dennis is a brilliant example of this. In my opinion he is a predatory and dangerous misogonist who is using the 'trans' cover to bully and intimidate young lesbian or sexuality questioning women. This was really brought home to me yesterday after I had a conversation on twitter with a male lesbian which quickly escalated into a creepy and overtly sexualised interaction. He obviously did not have a 'female' brain - he behaved like a classic misoginist sex pest, who did not respect my boundaries even after I made this clear to him that he was making me feel uncomfortable. It really gave me an insight into how this would impact on lesbians. I think that we take our spaces for granted. I lived in Manchester which is known for it's gay scene but still it only has 1 lesbian bar. It's important that these spaces are protected, especially for young lesbians who need a safe space to explore their sexuality.

This is not meant as an attack on trans people. I am not saying that all trans people are dangerous predators or that they don't exist. However, there is an alarming rise in transgender treatments and a small minority of very dangerous and aggressive autogenophiles. It's right that we should ask questions.

I hope to start a discussion and invite comments from anyone with an insight or any worries. This is just two areas I found of particular concern from my own research I'm hoping other people can share their expertise. I know that I am not a lesbian but it reminds me of that famous line about Nazi Germany.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one ..."

I think that it would be really helpful if we started to educate ourselves about the threats that lesbians are facing and started to speak out more. Lesbian, Bi-sexual, straight or male: United we stand, divided we fall.

On the subject of lesbians, can any lesbians pitch in with their experience of real life examples of being subjected to claims that lesbians are transphobic or arguments about the cotton ceiling please?

As a PP mentioned, the 'proof' that these things are occurring and that lesbians are under direct threat specifically from transwomen that I've seen on here so far seems to be based on a few extremist TRAs on Twitter. I'm not saying those TRAs don't identify as trans, but people often say things online to get attention or rile people and if it's only occurring on Twitter and Reddit, that's a very different threat from one that's prevalent IRL too.

The other thing I've seen mentioned on here as evidence is 'general lesbians at uni' are being pressured - if that's what people have read/heard, can anyone please point me to a source?

Im not being facetious, I'm just trying to understand the real threat here. I keep getting accused of being a selfish, insufficient lesbian because I don't pay attention to the TRAs on Twitter. I'm open to hearing the evidence and will obviously want to help other people if they are actually being threatened, I just haven't come across this in my own experience.

The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women, it oppresses us for not being a certain type of white man.

Thank you, intellectual titan Stillscreaming, for letting me know that when I lived in Saudi Arabia I was oppressed for not being a white man rather than for being a woman. I would suggest that someone tell the Saudi princess who was executed for having a relationship with a man she wasn't married to, but we can't, because she's dead. I'm sure it's just because she wasn't a white man though, nothing to do with her being a woman.

LonginesPrime, just go and have a look at Riley J Denis (or Rapey J Penis as he's known by many) for the general tenor of the conversation. This is a you tuber with a huge following whose entire output seems to be cloaking rape culture in a veneer of lesbians being phobic of lady dick. Magdalene Burns is very good at rebutting him. How she manages it without rolling her eyes into the back of her skull I'll never know

The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women, it oppresses us for not being a certain type of white man

Tell that to girls around the world who are forced into marriage at a young age or who have their genital mutilated because they're not white men. Or the 14 year-old rape victim in Uruguay who died a few days whle giving birth.

Or the 10 year-old in Paraguay who was raped and gave birth.

They weren't oppressed because they weren't white men; they were victims because they were female.

I don't understand what you're trying to say Terfsup, do you really think those women and girls would give a damn about naming their very own bodies as the reason for their hideous mistreatment at the hands of the patriarchy? Do you think they'd prefer one explanation to the other? I genuinely don't understand what you're getting at.

Thanks slug and Juzza for the online examples - what I've not seen is the extreme views and comments being made in real life, and I'm not 100% convinced they will be. The answer to the online nutcases is obviously just to ignore them (or to ridicule them like Magdalene B does).

I don't think the notion that penises can be female or that lesbians are by their very nature transphobic is going to take off in the real world, because most people who haven't been exposed to TRAs/the nitty gritty of the trans debate will see it through the lens of a lifetime of logic.

But I'm open to being proved wrong if this stuff is not just a few tweets and YouTube videos but is actually is happening to real women in gay bars up and down the country - anyone?

Juzza, do you have a link to the 'corrective' rapist you mentioned please?

It's not that I think online behaviour doesn't matter, but a TRA theorising that lesbians are transphobic (the same way they say lots of people are transphobic for ridiculous reasons) online is different from lesbians being abused and assaulted in real life. If that is happening then obviously that's terrible.

But if I were to raise a concern about the specific threat that transwomen are posing to lesbians with my friends in the pub, they would think I had gone mad if I said my strong feelings were based on having seen a screenshot of an anonymous note saying that 'someone said so on reddit..'.

There is a lot of shit said online and I'm not saying that it doesn't signal a general trend towards a particular way of thinking (and I appreciate your point about young people spending so much time online). However, if I hear a militant TRA saying something unreasonable, I'll read it in that context. If someone I respected who was usually quite sensible said those things, I would be more inclined to be concerned.

Someone on here recently claimed in a blog they posted that Stonewall has apparently withdrawn all services for lesbians on the basis the whole concept of lesbianism is transphobic. Obviously, this would be terrible so I went straight to the Stonewall website to check and, not being able to find this, asked the poster for a source, which never materialised.

If these things people are hearing are from reliable sources, I'm obviously going to be concerned and will put time and resources into activism and raising awareness among my networks. But I haven't seen a credible threat at this point. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just want some evidence before I get worked up about it.

Gendertrender, run and mostly populated by lesbians often document what they see as lesbian erasure, LonginesPrime. A lot of them are American and they talk about the demise of lesbian only spaces.

Might be worth a look.

Lesbian online dating sites are another area. A girlfriend of mine who is lesbian says you can't move for men identifying as women.

Magdelen Berns herself, was thrown out of Edinburgh University LGBT group for saying she wouldn't sleep with a lesbian who had a penis.

I imagine lesbians in relationships, or older lesbians, whose social network is already fairly established aren't the target.

But younger lesbians, going online to find networks. I think that's where the problems are more prevalent.

It's one of those unintended consequences that isn't being recorded.

So a lot, at the moment, is hearsay and anecdote.

On the website antifemale receipts, there is a dedicated section to lesphobia from transwomen. Be warned it's fairly grim.

But, I imagine, this is running in tandem with the threats that women are getting from trans-activists.

There is no official collation of data. Just very many women talking about it.

Negatives are hard to prove, as you know.
Where are the Lesbian bars and book stores of former days? What happened to the Lesbian groups at Uni?
I read personal stories every day from Lesbians young and old who are experiencing intimidation and abuse from transgender identified males. If you want to know what is happening to Lesbians you need to go to them, Longines, rather than wait here for them to come to you.

If transgender identified males carrying baseball bats to intimidate Lesbians at PRIDE doesn't move you, what will?

Thanks Datun, I'll check out those websites.

I do hear you re the online dating scene - there are a lot of transwomen identifying as lesbians there. Although I've never had any shit from them personally. And I agree that lesbians who are already coupled up (as lots of my lesbian friends are) wouldn't have this on their radar.

thebewilderness, that's why I was asking the question though - because none of my lesbian friends IRL are talking about this issue or having any problems they're discussing (including quite a few lesbians fresh out of uni). I'm not moving in the circles where this stuff is happening, so I was curious as to whether/where it is happening. I'm not suggesting it's not though.

@LonginesPrime trying to find some articles for you about RL happenings. HTH

There was a fairplay4women article that listed (and was an ongoing list I think?) all the bad things that were happening to women. I think this might be the one, but if not does any one else have it?

fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

@LonginesPrime Nora Calder had her job threatened due to saying if she was a lesbian that meant she wasn't interested in penises.

Same old, same old: Women assumed to be lying/exaggerating/imaginining the abuse received from males. Longines, there are accounts from lesbians all over the net about this happening in real life and online. It happens.

How about asking yourself why you find it so difficult to believe that men may behave toward lesbians the way that men behave toward women in general: As if they are entitled to our time, interest, nurturing and love, along with sexual access to our bodies.

Thanks all for the helpful references.

Anotherquoll, at no point did I say that anyone was lying or that real women were imagining their own experiences. I feel I made that quite clear.

How about asking yourself why you find it so difficult to believe that men may behave toward lesbians the way that men behave toward women in general

As a lesbian, I get quite a lot of hassle from random blokes. I just haven't personally experienced it from transwomen. However, other people obviously have different experiences so I was asking about theirs.

It's not that I find it difficult to believe that men are often awful to women. I never said anything close to that. I just want to make sure that I'm armed with actual facts and evidence if I have conversations with people on this topic IRL, both so I don't get labelled a thoughtless bigot and so I actually know what I'm talking about.

LonginesPrime

From what I can gather, it's younger lesbians (including school-age), and also those who are 'on the scene'.

Maybe it's more about hook up places?

Because, presumably, it would have to be a place where transwomen are prevalent (online, bars/clubs and dating sites).

So I am sure there are many lesbians for whom this simply doesn't appear on their radar.

It's slightly more worrying with the younger generation, because they are being surrounded by the narrative that lesbian does not mean same-sex attraction amongst women.

It's all over YouTube, Twitter, tumblr, etc. And it's often not random. Like it isn't random for women generally. There is a deliberate targeting.

Vancouver women's library, the Salford working women's resource, that lesbian vegan restaurant (the name escapes me), etc. Places transwomen would not generally even go to, but targeted deliberately because they are women only.

Read up about Mitchfest. The largely lesbian, women only festival that has been held annually for 40 years.

It was targeted, fairly violently, by transactivists claiming they were lesbian and it was exclusionary. And it has now shut down. After 40 years.

The real shame to this is that, apparently, transwomen (the old style transsexuals, who didn't claim they were lesbians) were always welcome.

I just looked that case up Juzza12 and I found this interesting link:

genderidentitywatch.com/2018/03/12/dana-rivers-usa/

They also mention MNer posieparker on the site. They have a blurb and this:

We stand with Posie Parker and support her right to publicly reject transgenderism and gender identity activism.

Three Murder Victims! Will be interesting to find out where this case will fall in the stats. Was pleased to see that they managed to add in some history in the news stories.

Wish the founder of Mitchfest was on MN.

I'm sorry Juzza12! I had a lightbulb moment after I was off doing something else, but still thinking about all of this.

Do you mean they are victim blaming?!