Lesbian's and the Trans debate

[DJLippy]

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were regarding the impacts that transgenderism was having specifically on lesbians and the 'erasure' of lesbian identity. I am concerned that many public debates are ignoring their concerns. I don't think the LGBT 'community' is representing them properly and I think that women need to understand and address the specific concerns they have. Lesbian, bi-sexual and straight women should speak up together because I think that we have an insight that men lack.

If you haven't done so already I would ask everyone to check out Magdalen Berns who speaks so eloquently about the trans debate but it's impacts on young gay and lesbian people.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ

I think there are two main areas that I have identified are of particular concern.

1. The extremely high (2:1) rates of referrals to gender-dysphoria clinics of girls and young lesbians. Heather-Brunswick Evans work is very interesting here, especially as regards the impact that porn and an overly-sexualised media is having female self-identity. I have heard people express fears that this is in effect 21st century conversion therapy whereby young gay and lesbian children will be effectively steralised and neutered.

2. The encroachment of transwomen on lesbian spaces . I think that Reiley J Dennis is a brilliant example of this. In my opinion he is a predatory and dangerous misogonist who is using the 'trans' cover to bully and intimidate young lesbian or sexuality questioning women. This was really brought home to me yesterday after I had a conversation on twitter with a male lesbian which quickly escalated into a creepy and overtly sexualised interaction. He obviously did not have a 'female' brain - he behaved like a classic misoginist sex pest, who did not respect my boundaries even after I made this clear to him that he was making me feel uncomfortable. It really gave me an insight into how this would impact on lesbians. I think that we take our spaces for granted. I lived in Manchester which is known for it's gay scene but still it only has 1 lesbian bar. It's important that these spaces are protected, especially for young lesbians who need a safe space to explore their sexuality.

This is not meant as an attack on trans people. I am not saying that all trans people are dangerous predators or that they don't exist. However, there is an alarming rise in transgender treatments and a small minority of very dangerous and aggressive autogenophiles. It's right that we should ask questions.

I hope to start a discussion and invite comments from anyone with an insight or any worries. This is just two areas I found of particular concern from my own research I'm hoping other people can share their expertise. I know that I am not a lesbian but it reminds me of that famous line about Nazi Germany.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one ..."

I think that it would be really helpful if we started to educate ourselves about the threats that lesbians are facing and started to speak out more. Lesbian, Bi-sexual, straight or male: United we stand, divided we fall.

I was being facetious, I can't understand Stillscreaming's point at all, in that she seems to be arguing against a position no-one in this thread appears to hold.

Still screaming: of course there's more to us than reproductive role. Who is saying there isn't.

It does all get a bit fragmented, so I'll do a recap.

I said that I didn't agree that human female = woman, because that female is a biological term that related to sex and that 'woman' is a broader term that relates to other things, usually called gender.

Someone said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that gender was a social construct, an outside force that was applied to females and I ummed and arred a bit because, while I don't think that's wrong I don't think, it's the whole story. There are lots of different cultures in the world, all treat women differently, and we all turn out women.

I'm suggesting that there is something else, other than gender performance but of which gender performance is an aspect, that is both innate and currently unmeasurable.

I say currently unmeasurable because of the 'gay finger' thing. I've talked before about my mum needing physical proof that I was really a lesbian and not just showing off to make her look bad in front of the neighbour and her delight at discovery that a significant proportion of gay people had a longer ring finger than first finger, that was enough for her to see my errant behaviour as having a biological, not behavioural basis, i.e. not her fault. Of course, not all gays have the gay finger and not everyone with a gay finger is gay, apparently it occurs a fair bit in people with autism too but that wasn't a problem for her because it's a bit 'other' and that's all she needs.

That's a very long way of saying that we don't fully under the human genome and maybe it will all turn out to be biological but we've still got the whole genotypes and phenotype thing to work through.

"The genotype is the set of genes in our DNA which is responsible for a particular trait. The phenotype is the physical expression, or characteristics, of that trait. For example, two organisms that have even the minutest difference in their genes are said to have different genotypes."

So 'it's biology' probably raises more questions, for me than it answers. If someone tells me that they are a women, I don't argue with them. I don't necessarily want to share a bathroom with them, I'd like everyone to have a nice, fully enclosed cubicle. I don't necessarily want to have sex or a relationship with them, I might be a lesbian but I'm not a public service.

I think we need to focus on arseholes bring arseholes. If a a young lesbian doesn't want to have sex with an individual, and pressure is being put in her, we need to focus our fury on that persona and whoever is enabling them. When we go off into 'trans this and trans that', everyone stops listening and starts fighting. Leaving the young lesbian, who everyone claims to care about, isolated in the middle of an anger fest.

Ok we disagree at the start because I think biological = female, and woman = adult female human. There is no definition of woman pursuant to which adult human female isn't a necessary and sufficient condition.

What part of XX = female and XY = male do you not get?

However you try to mystify it with your pseudo intellectual ruminations, at the basic level of our genes, our womanhood (if not our full humanity it appears) is bound up in those two X chromosomes. All the rest of the arguments flow on from there.

@Stillscreaming

It's true that there are lots of different cultures in the world, but the crucial thing from a feminist perspective is that every single one of them is patriarchal. This goes for all human cultures, throughout history too. There's no compelling evidence that there has ever been a true matriarchal human society.

The reason that the radfem analysis emphasises the importance of biological sex is that discrimination and exploitation of women by men throughout history is based on biological factors - comparative physical weakness, lower aggression and exploiting the realities of our reproductive functions and childbirth to create structural inequalities that benefit men. Over time these factors have been dressed up and overlaid with cultural constructs (menstruation being unclean, childbirth a punishment from god, women are "naturally" meant to raise children and stay in the home, the Male Gaze etc etc), as well as gender stereotypes, all of which fluctuate, but at the core of them is female biology.

Conflating and confusing sex and gender dangerously muddies the water and potentially ignores this reality. That's why it's important for them to be distinct - in our understanding and in the law.

christ alive I'm getting some serious education on here from you lot. when i joined mums net i never expected this! as an (almost) 45 year old lesbian who came out at school (cue bullying, aids jokes & martina navratilova comparisons - it was the 80s after all) i thought my fight to get to where i am now was the heavy lifting done, clearly this is not the case. Thanks to MN I've become a twitter stalker of trans/rad fems and anyone else in between.

However, I haven't seen this total polarisation of views, with no one listening to anyone else and each side trying to out-scream the other, since the Sex Wars and they resulted in the death of second wave feminism.

Reports of our death have been greatly exaggerated.

Can you imagine the reaction you'd get from (most) straight blokes if you told them 'there's a lot of fun you can have with a flaccid penis'? O r that she might use it in ways they don't expect? I don't expect the 'treat it like a big clit' line would go far (although might make it easier for them to find.......)

As a lesbian, I don't feel scared of Riley Dennis and I'm not worried that I'll be erased.

My biggest issue is lesbian PDAs in anything other than an LGBT environment as it's more likely than not that we'll get hassle from heterosexual blokes.

Ive shared spaces with transwomen for years and have never had an issue with their being forceful or suggestive. I get it all the time from men.

Some of us are concerned about others, particularly young lesbians, who lost certainly need protecting from "lesbians" like this:

Can you elaborate on what the risks are to young lesbians and how they should be protected?

I don't care who's fine with sharing, lots of women aren't and they shouldn't have to. Consent, bodily privacy and dignity are human rights. Campaign for third spaces if y'all want to share with penises.

Ok, but why is that specific to lesbians? Surely that's an issue for all women regardless of their sexuality.

This isn't a matter of personal choice where some will prefer this and some others will prefer that.
This is a matter of law that will impact half the human population.

I'm with you, I just hate the 'I'm fine sharing showers with creepy blokes' crew

The US Department of health and human services have removed all mention of lesbians and bisexuals from their website.

The website, named WomensHealth.gov, saw that references to lesbian and bi health were removed over the course of a month

Lesbian erasure.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/03/21/department-of-health-and-human-services-removes-words-lesbian-and-bisexual-from-website/amp/

Interesting thread, just place marking to read later.

The US Department of health and human services have removed all mention of lesbians and bisexuals from their website.

I think we could all join hands and agree on the horror that is Trump's Leadership of the US and its hiddious impact on women and minorities.

Can you imagine the reaction you'd get from (most) straight blokes if you told them 'there's a lot of fun you can have with a flaccid penis'? O r that she might use it in ways they don't expect? I don't expect the 'treat it like a big clit' line would go far (although might make it easier for them to find.......)

I'm sure there are those who like that kind of thing but for those of us who don't, I hope that none of us would be shy about telling the owner to 'fuck off'.

How should they be protected? Well, it would be a great fucking start if so called lesbians stopped pretending that none of this is an issue.

Some lesbians are telling you what they think, those lesbians have no responsibility to fit into your political view. We're allowed to think for and speak for ourselves.

You might find a little bit more sympathy for your cause, if you occasional mentioned lesbian women and their unique position in the world in a way that wasn't related to trans women. Then, we might be convinced, that you actually gave a fuck, rather than just using us to bash another minority group.

It would help if you asked us what we wanted, what are concern are, rather than telling us. Repeatedly.

It would also help, if 'rad fem' groups didn't allow themselves to be hosted by well known homophobes like David Davis MP. A man at war with his own party's LGBT section, because he said that plans to legalise gay marriage were 'barking mad' and that no one wants a gay child.

rather than just using us

Are you committing the 'everyone on mumsnet is a heterosexual mum' fallacy?

Good lord, what a load of whataboutery. So it's Trump's fault, Davies Davies fault, and rad fems fault.

You might well feel that women haven't supported lesbians, and you probably have a point.

I had no idea how marginalised they were within the LGBT community.

Many things don't enter into one's sphere of experience.

I have learnt more about disability, autism, homosexuality, racism, misogyny, the NHS, how laws are passed, equality law, and the hierarchy of political parties, unions and companies, from this one issue.

But I have learnt.

It's given me a far deeper understanding of all manner of issues.

Focusing on the misogyny of the trans-ideology is my main concern.

I believe that this has an overlap into many other issues.

And the right to retain the language used to tackle sexism and oppression is crucial.

Every day, I see new examples of it.

Minutes ago, I read a thread (screenshotted) which came up on a completely unrelated forum. Where lesbians, now called cis lesbians, are not allowed to gather without the presence of male lesbians, but male lesbians are allowed together without the presence of them.

The woman was reduced to asking well what if we want to talk about things to do with our biology?

Not allowed. Without the presence of men. (Who describe themselves as butch lesbians. Masculine men).

@RealityHasALiberalBias

I hope that you can accept my genuine compliment that you've expressed that beautifully. It's an argument I'm familiar with but it's rare to see it so clearly and concisely expressed.

I think that the sections of rad fem analysis which focus on female biology do so because of its tight focus on women's oppression. We would agree that there is enough women's oppression to not have time to widen the focus; women are oppressed in hideous numbers and in hideous ways across the globe, while we can focus on it, we can't pretend that it's the only kind of oppressions that takes place.

Racism, homophobia, classism, disability discrimination and even sectarianism in their prevalence give lie to the fact that oppression is biologically based. The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women, it oppresses us for notbeing a certain type of white man.

In practical terms, I know that I can talk to a young, unemployed, working class white man, look him in the eye and tell him that I'm oppressed and expect anything but contempt.