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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lesbian's and the Trans debate

234 replies

DJLippy · 20/03/2018 03:36

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were regarding the impacts that transgenderism was having specifically on lesbians and the 'erasure' of lesbian identity. I am concerned that many public debates are ignoring their concerns. I don't think the LGBT 'community' is representing them properly and I think that women need to understand and address the specific concerns they have. Lesbian, bi-sexual and straight women should speak up together because I think that we have an insight that men lack.

If you haven't done so already I would ask everyone to check out Magdalen Berns who speaks so eloquently about the trans debate but it's impacts on young gay and lesbian people.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ

I think there are two main areas that I have identified are of particular concern.

  1. The extremely high (2:1) rates of referrals to gender-dysphoria clinics of girls and young lesbians. Heather-Brunswick Evans work is very interesting here, especially as regards the impact that porn and an overly-sexualised media is having female self-identity. I have heard people express fears that this is in effect 21st century conversion therapy whereby young gay and lesbian children will be effectively steralised and neutered.

  2. The encroachment of transwomen on lesbian spaces . I think that Reiley J Dennis is a brilliant example of this. In my opinion he is a predatory and dangerous misogonist who is using the 'trans' cover to bully and intimidate young lesbian or sexuality questioning women. This was really brought home to me yesterday after I had a conversation on twitter with a male lesbian which quickly escalated into a creepy and overtly sexualised interaction. He obviously did not have a 'female' brain - he behaved like a classic misoginist sex pest, who did not respect my boundaries even after I made this clear to him that he was making me feel uncomfortable. It really gave me an insight into how this would impact on lesbians. I think that we take our spaces for granted. I lived in Manchester which is known for it's gay scene but still it only has 1 lesbian bar. It's important that these spaces are protected, especially for young lesbians who need a safe space to explore their sexuality.

This is not meant as an attack on trans people. I am not saying that all trans people are dangerous predators or that they don't exist. However, there is an alarming rise in transgender treatments and a small minority of very dangerous and aggressive autogenophiles. It's right that we should ask questions.

I hope to start a discussion and invite comments from anyone with an insight or any worries. This is just two areas I found of particular concern from my own research I'm hoping other people can share their expertise. I know that I am not a lesbian but it reminds me of that famous line about Nazi Germany.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one ..."

I think that it would be really helpful if we started to educate ourselves about the threats that lesbians are facing and started to speak out more. Lesbian, Bi-sexual, straight or male: United we stand, divided we fall.

OP posts:
Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 11:10

@datun

Focusing on the misogyny of the trans-ideology is my main concern.

And I would defend your right to do that.

I would point out that the original rad fem, second wavers did a fantastic job of fighting prostitution and pornograhy while never attacking sex workers or women employed in pornography. They were able to focus, absolutely, on the problem at hand, without making anything personal. That focus meant that they couldn't be dismissed as 'phobic' or bigoted and it brought the exploited women on side, rather than making it a 'them and us' situation.

We would both be able to bring up examples of what could only be described at utter idiocy on both sides of this argument but I don't think that helps much. Another thread about LM, to add to the fifty threads already running about LM, does nothing to make this a conversation that I want to join.

Another anonymous Twitter user, spouting crap, is nothing more than that. This argument is so toxic that the tweet could have come from an over entitled trans identified person, a 'rad fem' trying to offer proof that there are over entitled trans identified people or it could have come from straight Dave in Luton who just likes winding people up.

In my experience the last person it's likely to have come from is an actual trans women because she's most likely to be banging her head on a desk because she can't think of enough ways to dissociate herself from the sender. The 'Jaycees' and 'Justanothertranswomen' of this world have spent hours explaining that they have as much truck with that kind of bollox as you and I do.

Datun · 22/03/2018 11:29

Racism, homophobia, classism, disability discrimination and even sectarianism in their prevalence give lie to the fact that oppression is biologically based.

But discrimination is not oppression.

Oppression has to feed a benefit back up the food chain to the oppressor.

Historically racism was used to oppress. Because of free labour.

And we are still mired in the echoes of that.

Disabled people, or homosexuality (as an orientation) can't be oppressed, because there is no structural or class benefit to the oppressor.

They can suffer from abuse and discrimination, of course.

But there is nothing to gain from oppressing them as a class.

Likewise transwomen can't be oppressed by women. Firstly because women don't have the power, but secondly there is nothing about even the possibility of oppressing tranwomen that benefits women. They don't provide us with any gains.

There has to be material gain for oppression to happen.

The material gain men get from oppressing women, is sexual and emotional labour and controlling their progeny.

And the only shared characteristic that identifies women as the cohort to oppress is their biology.

slug · 22/03/2018 12:04

Who...Hold on a minute there... Are you really suggesting that the patriarchy is only white??????

The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women, it oppresses us for not being a certain type of white man.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 12:04

@ TallulahWaitingInTheRain

I'm not buying into the fallacy that everyone on Mumsnet is heterosexual. In the same way that most women have no problem in distinguishing between a trans woman, who has met all of the requirements to obtain a gender recognition certificate and someone who is trans and 'identifies as a woman on Tuesdays and Fridays', unless it's raining. I'm perfectly happy with distinguishing between a woman who lives as a lesbian and someone who snogged a woman in college and 'identifies' as bisexual.

Some women, including ones who totally disagree with my view, have made it perfectly clear that they are lesbians others, not so much. Some women who don't even claim to be bisexual are also assuming to speak for me, that's frustrating.

Juzza12 · 22/03/2018 12:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 12:19

Oppression has to feed a benefit back up the food chain to the oppressor.

That's a uniquely Marxist view, it's not the dictionary definition of opression (or not the only one, you might find it in a dictionary if you look hard enough). and it's not the general understanding of opression.

The Oxford living dictionary defines its most common usage as:

1Prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/oppression

That describes perfectly racism, homophobia, classism and disability discrimination.

Juzza12 · 22/03/2018 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 12:37

!I'm a lesbian you idiot! An actual lesbian.

It's odd, everyone else has who has claimed to be a lesbian, has put their cards on the table, discussed lesbian history, their part in numerous political struggles, you know, the things that lesbians always do to identify themselves online.

That you haven't doesn't mean you're not a dyke. That you've not discussed one single other topic that relates to lesbians apart from trans people, doesn't mean you're not a dyke. That you've committed the cardinal sin of lesbians of denying other lesbians experience doesn't mean you're not a dyke. However, it makes you unusual and not very representative.

I'll repeat my request that you don't speak for me.

LangCleg · 22/03/2018 12:40

The patricharcy doesn't oppresses us for being women

Christ on a bike.

If this shit was confined to university campuses with a load of hyper-privileged students disappearing up their own fundaments, I wouldn't give a toss.

But it isn't. It's producing a generation of policy makers who CANNOT SEE REALITY. By the time they have finished, the country will be in the fucking toilet.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 12:48

Interesting to also note that only 5% of transgender people have sought medical treatment. That includes therapy, not just hormones and surgery. It says it all about the current state of the trans community.

That figure is a bit dodgy, it's based on a projected numbers of trans people rather than people actually saying that they are trans.

As you'll know, with gay people, the projected figures come out at between 1% and 10%, depending on who is doing the projecting. They are not numbers to be relied on, if you were throwing a party, they wouldn't be a good guide to how many sandwiches to make.

Putting that aside, let's agree that 'trans people' have a low rate of medicalisation. I don't know how that can, on one hand be used to argue that all trans people are inauthentic and on the other hand, lesbian identity is being erased because they are all transitioning to men.

You sort of have to pick a side. I don't mind which side but you can't argue them both at the same time.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 22/03/2018 13:04

Stillscreaming

I will happily admit to being a fully paid-up radical / Marxist feminist, but only because I find those analyses to be the most internally coherent of the ones I've studied.

My background is in anthropology with a side order of primatology and human evolution (I'm not an academic or an expert, but this is my academic background). Pointing out that there are class hierarchies and discrimination between men is fine, but it's not equivalent to the systematic oppression of women throughout pretty much the whole of human history.

Women make up 50% of the human population, and always have. If we were to accept your view that misogyny is caused by the same factors as discrimination against working class men, people of colour, disabled people etc. and biological factors aren't relevant, why would women have submitted to the oppression?

As 50% of the population, all other things being equal, we should expect to see either total equality throughout history, or a flip-flopping of power between men and women. But we don't see that, we see endless patriarchy. Why? Because all other things are not equal. There has to be something to explain how men have been able to systematically oppress and exploit women, and what other explanation can there be than biology? Comparative physical weakness primarily.

This analysis isn't just Marxist by the way, it also ties in with Selfish Gene theory, as well as studies of the other great apes that have shown that violence (often gratuitous) is hard-wired into males, and used to control females.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 22/03/2018 13:07

Stillscreaming I do completely agree with you about not personalising the debate by the way. I don't like the Madigan threads at all. We should be playing the ball, not the (wo)man.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 16:11

As 50% of the population, all other things being equal, we should expect to see either total equality throughout history, or a flip-flopping of power between men and women. But we don't see that, we see endless patriarchy. Why? Because all other things are not equal. There has to be something to explain how men have been able to systematically oppress and exploit women, and what other explanation can there be than biology? Comparative physical weakness primarily.

It's not just a numbers game, for example when you look at the occupation of India, there was about one white man for every fifty Indian men and the India population were still oppressed. That had no biological basis. It didn't even have any technological basis, fifty India men could overwhelm a white man with a gun.

However, they didn't because they were cowered.

There has to be something to explain how men have been able to systematically oppress and exploit women, and what other explanation can there be than biology? Comparative physical weakness primarily.

Physical weakness is something that is experienced on an individual level. We have no evidence that men and women have ever fought each other in groups, no one-on-one combat. We've all seen enough Buffy to know that a number of small women can take out a large, violent man. but most women are too cowered to even try this.

Actual violent events between men and women are relatively rare in contemporary western cultures, while we all know women who have been attacked, the overwhelming majority of women aren't subjected to physical violence the overwhelming majority of the time.

While violence as it relates to physical size/biology is a tool of the patriarchy, it's not the defining characteristic. We have to recognise, as unpalatable as it is, that women have had a role in proping up this system. Foot binding, FGM, Menstruation Huts, etc. are all, traditionally overseen by women. They are not violent acts carried out by men and I can't see what value they would have to male society. It could be argued that the mikvah bath, taken by Jewish women to ritually clean themselves, is to the detriment of men, as it makes their partner sexually unavailable for almost half the month.

Women have colluded in the patriarchy and the blind insistence that no woman has ever benefited from it doesn't help our understanding of how our society works and how to change it.

Pure Marxist theory doesn't buy that there is a biological bent to the opression of women either. They theorise that it comes out of a primeval division of labour although the anthropological evidence is that hunter/gatherers were pretty egalitarian.

Like male violence, women's biology is a tool used to prop up the patriarchy but together they are not the whole story.

We can theorise about female biology being the reason for female opression till the cows come home, we can both offer a bit of evidence but neither have absolute proof. I think we need to consider how much the liberation of women gains from each stance. Do we present ourselves as having the body of a weak and feeble women but the heart and soul of a man or do we present ourselves as having the body of a weak and feeble women and the heart and soul of a feeble woman?

HairyBallTheorem · 22/03/2018 16:25

Evidence drawn from anthropology, history, sociology, the study of human physiology, sports science versus... an episode of Buffy.

Top marks for the daftest comment I've seen on here for a long, long time.

(What is it with lib fems and admitting that men on average and in terms of the vast majority of individuals, are very much stronger than women? I've even seen posters on here argue that if one were to accept the existence of a 10% difference in male versus female performance across the board in pretty much every world record in every sport, it would be the end of feminism as we know it, yet at the same time, on the same thread argue that there is no threat to feminism from a belief in innately hard-wired lady brains.)

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 16:36

We can theorise about female biology being the reason for female opression till the cows come home, we can both offer a bit of evidence but neither have absolute proof.
Every culture on the planet passes laws regulating women's reproductive capacity for thousands of years. I call that absolute proof.

Datun · 22/03/2018 16:48

Still, you don't make any sense, to be honest.

Women were actually the property of men. Owned. Chattels. As were their children. And any property or money was ceded to their husbands.

It doesn't get more controlling than that.

When I got married, taking out the word obey from the marriage ceremony was considered rebellious.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 22/03/2018 16:50

@Stillscreaming

Of course the social sciences can't provide absolute proof of anything. I've already said that I favour these particular analyses because I find them the most robust. Lib fem, pomo analyses are riddled with holes.

Your "weak and feeble woman" question is a false dichotomy. I choose neither presentation.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 22/03/2018 17:14

@Stillscreaming

We all know that women prop up the patriarchy - who has ever said they don't? It's very dangerous to challenge power, and most people accept it unquestioningly as the norm that they're born into anyway.

You're being very literal about these arguments, whereas I'm talking about male violence in a more general sense, in the way it pervades and shapes human society.

It's ridiculous to claim that technological strength is irrelevant, as all history ever shows quite clearly. The British of course were eventually forced out of India by massed, organised rebellions (and for a whole bunch of extremely complex reasons that we don't really need to get into in this broader discussion). The point is that the power changed hands from one set of men to another.

Surely we should see similar exchanges of power between men and women, or - more likely, given class and wealth structures - equal representation of women in power hierarchies throughout history?

Why don't we? There has to be a separate analysis and theory to explain why human societies are always patriarchal and why power may change hands, but always from male to male. It simply doesn't make sense to compare class and colonialism to the oppression of women.

It's true that on an individual basis, a white, educated middle class woman will have more power and agency than e.g. a black working class man. But at each level, women always have less power than the men in their own category.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 17:58

There has to be a separate analysis and theory to explain why human societies are always patriarchal and why power may change hands, but always from male to male.

I agree, but to claim that there must be a reason and therefore the reason must be biology isn't very good reasoning. I can see why this is an acceptable political theory but to extrapolate that claim into 'it's accepted fact', and although you're not doing yourself, it is often pick up and ran with here, is dangerous.

As you say here:

Of course the social sciences can't provide absolute proof of anything. I've already said that I favour these particular analyses because I find them the most robust. Lib fem, pomo analyses are riddled with holes.

We're both taken a different view, which is all well and good during a measured exchange of ideas but when your theory is used as a factual battering ram against those who don't fit into it, it becomes damaging.

Juzza12 · 22/03/2018 18:01

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Juzza12 · 22/03/2018 18:03

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TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/03/2018 18:08

everyone else has who has claimed to be a lesbian, has put their cards on the table, discussed lesbian history, their part in numerous political struggles, you know, the things that lesbians always do to identify themselves online

This is a really bizarre statement. Are you serious?

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 18:09

*Still, you don't make any sense, to be honest.

Women were actually the property of men. Owned. Chattels. As were their children. And any property or money was ceded to their husbands.*

Women have been in different situations in different societies during different periods of time. For example Brehon law in pre Christian Ireland, was much more favourable to women than the Christian laws which came later.

British women could inherite while free Roman women couldn't. You can't see history as one big blob.

Juzza12 · 22/03/2018 18:10

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 18:12

This is a really bizarre statement. Are you serious?

Absolutely. As I've just touched on with Datun, different societies have different customs at different times. The lesbian community has a particular way of communicating online, in a world that's full of people pretending to be lesbians.