Lesbian's and the Trans debate

[DJLippy]

I was wondering what peoples thoughts were regarding the impacts that transgenderism was having specifically on lesbians and the 'erasure' of lesbian identity. I am concerned that many public debates are ignoring their concerns. I don't think the LGBT 'community' is representing them properly and I think that women need to understand and address the specific concerns they have. Lesbian, bi-sexual and straight women should speak up together because I think that we have an insight that men lack.

If you haven't done so already I would ask everyone to check out Magdalen Berns who speaks so eloquently about the trans debate but it's impacts on young gay and lesbian people.

www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ

I think there are two main areas that I have identified are of particular concern.

1. The extremely high (2:1) rates of referrals to gender-dysphoria clinics of girls and young lesbians. Heather-Brunswick Evans work is very interesting here, especially as regards the impact that porn and an overly-sexualised media is having female self-identity. I have heard people express fears that this is in effect 21st century conversion therapy whereby young gay and lesbian children will be effectively steralised and neutered.

2. The encroachment of transwomen on lesbian spaces . I think that Reiley J Dennis is a brilliant example of this. In my opinion he is a predatory and dangerous misogonist who is using the 'trans' cover to bully and intimidate young lesbian or sexuality questioning women. This was really brought home to me yesterday after I had a conversation on twitter with a male lesbian which quickly escalated into a creepy and overtly sexualised interaction. He obviously did not have a 'female' brain - he behaved like a classic misoginist sex pest, who did not respect my boundaries even after I made this clear to him that he was making me feel uncomfortable. It really gave me an insight into how this would impact on lesbians. I think that we take our spaces for granted. I lived in Manchester which is known for it's gay scene but still it only has 1 lesbian bar. It's important that these spaces are protected, especially for young lesbians who need a safe space to explore their sexuality.

This is not meant as an attack on trans people. I am not saying that all trans people are dangerous predators or that they don't exist. However, there is an alarming rise in transgender treatments and a small minority of very dangerous and aggressive autogenophiles. It's right that we should ask questions.

I hope to start a discussion and invite comments from anyone with an insight or any worries. This is just two areas I found of particular concern from my own research I'm hoping other people can share their expertise. I know that I am not a lesbian but it reminds me of that famous line about Nazi Germany.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one ..."

I think that it would be really helpful if we started to educate ourselves about the threats that lesbians are facing and started to speak out more. Lesbian, Bi-sexual, straight or male: United we stand, divided we fall.

A lesbian friend said that she mourns the 'erasure' of lesbians because there is so much pressure to become transgender.

The other side of that is an AGP acquaintance frequently complains that lesbians don't want to have sex with her. Gee, I wonder why that is?

If a lesbian doesn't mean being a female having a sexual orientation to females, what does it mean

Behold I remember there being a lot of argument about how to be a lesbian - did we need to be separatist, was butch and femme heteronormative or was it classist to think so, how did the S&M lesbians fit, was political lesbianism acceptable. Lots of disagreement on how. No disagreement on what a lesbian is: a woman attracted to / in sexual relationships with other women. No transexual claimed to be actually female, let alone lesbian, transvestites left us alone. We knew damn well that men we're not and never could be lesbians regardless of how they imagined themselves - and got on with fighting about how we should be lesbians.

that stonewall and other alleged LGBT bodies now can't answer this question speaks that their priorities are invested in the sexual rights of men not the rights of lesbian women.

why is it you're putting so much effort into shutting down this specific thread, minimising everything and basically shouting 'nothing to see here, move along'?

Wonder why you don't want this discussed? And are so keen that everyone just stops talking about it?

I'm not trying to shut anything down or prevent anything from being discussed. Apologies, I had assumed, as it was a discussion and therefore more than one point of view was allowed.

And, that's an interesting way of phrasing that. You are wondering why I don't want something discussed and accusing me of trying to shut a thread down? You are actually pondering on my motivation when I am simply disagreeing and putting my point of view across?

What exactly are you suggesting my hidden agenda is? Because you don't ask a question in that way unless you are suggesting I have one. Or maybe you think I shouldn't have a stake in this discussion?

If you've got a question for me, ask me. But don't expect me to rewrite my history and my experience to help other people make a point.

Beholdtheflorist

I guess my concern is that there could be a risk but everyone is acting like it doesn't exist. I don't think it's at all appropriate to put children on hormone blockers. Like I said, I used to be a little boy til I grew tits and I became a woman and now the thought of someone fucking with my body like that for no reason!!!! How do you know if you want to be a woman if you never become a woman? I didn't discover my sexuality until I went through puberty. We are so squemish about talking to kids about sex, I wonder it's appropriate to talk about sexual preferences with 10 year old's. Is gender and sexuality being conflated? If I was a kid today woud I say I was trans? I had an accepting family who explained what gender was but what if I was from a Christian or strict family? The implications are horrific. What about trans-kids reproductive rights!?

@Haidees

Maybe you should properly read the thread as opposed to skim reading it and then my posts might make more sense.

But, the more I become immersed in this debate (not just this thread) the more I find my perspective being silenced, my experience contradicted and my opinion dismissed. As a group of women who feel that is exactly what they are experiencing it seems a bit odd to say the least.

Beyond, what is a lesbian?

I suspect that twitter user has probably been suspended for the website link in her profile as opposed to the word Dyke in her username. A quick search of twitter brings up thousands of users with the word dyke in their name.

I’m not necessarily saying that’s right btw, but I am a great believer in a fact and stating she’s been suspended because she’s got dyke in her username is a radical interpretation of whatever has happened. No one but twitter probably knows. Which is part of the problem, how we consume news and the speed of it. Because someone once said something on twitter, doesn’t make it true.

I can’t talk for every other lesbian, I can only give you my personal perspective which is that for me, a lesbian is someone who is attracted to women. Now, I know that as society gets more accepting of anything outside the ‘norm’ that may mean the definition of a woman broadens but I think narrowing the definition to exclusive attraction to the female sex doesn’t always work. Because as I said before, some of them are hairy men.

That’s my definition. YMMV. That’s ok too.

But the notion that lesbians are being erased as a result of the current situation isn’t strictly true. There have always been issues with lesbian erasure and lesbian spaces. And to be honest, there hasn’t really been such a thing as a solely lesbian space, ever. Even the downstairs lesbian disco at the London Lesbian and Gay Centre on a Saturday night had plenty of straight feminists in attendance.

I’ve lost count of the number of women in the LGBT sector who identify as queer because they’ve got a boyfriend but they once had a dream about Tilda Swinton or kissed a woman at university.

So sorry, but part of me feels that lesbians are being co-opted into a conversation that’s about them but not because of them. As it ever was so.

(I’ve been posting on Mumsnet under this username since 2015. I had two Mumsnet users as witnesses at my lesbian wedding. So in case anyone wants to suggest because I dissent that I am a man, let’s face it they don’t have the attention span for this kind of deep cover.)

I meant Behold, excuse me. But men are attracted to women, and men are heterosexual so that is not a definition of lesbian.

'Men are heterosexual' I mean 'men who are attracted to women are heterosexual'

I keep posting without care

I agree with a lot of what florist says.

As I recall the definition of a lesbian was up for debate prior to this - plenty of women who used to say that butch / femme couples weren't really lesbians (also stone butches, BDSMers, probably others I can't think of right now - it wasn't just about how to be a lesbian but who really counted - anyone else remember "the lesbians will decide who is a lesbian"?) I only caught the very very end of that and it was toxic as fuck even as it tailed away. And the idea that gay men have ever had my back is frankly laughable.

I've come up with my own test for the definition of lesbian, referencing the well known legal "man on the Clapham omnibus" test: "would the man on the Night Tube, seeing you with your partner, past, current or hypothetical future, drop a dollop of kebab on his foot and drunkenly ask if he can join you this evening?"

Has anyone noticed that there are a small number of posters who occasionally visit this board and often mis name @Datun as Datum?
There seems to be a consistency about the type of arguments that they use (and maybe something connected with cake baking?)
Just wondering what that's about as it's such an easy name to remember??

That's just deflection. A lesbian is a female whose sexual orientation is exclusively to females. It's not up to anyone to subjectively redefine the word. There's het, bi and homosexual. That's it.

would the man on the Night Tube, seeing you with your partner, past, current or hypothetical future, drop a dollop of kebab on his foot and drunkenly ask if he can join you this evening?"

That's so much funnier than I'm going to be and I'd be happy to live with it but it includes the 'political lesbian' who is shagging women, not because she actually fancies them but to make a point and omits the lesbians stuck in a straight relationships, for social and financial reasons or, back in the day, so she could keep her children.

Even the downstairs lesbian disco at the London Lesbian and Gay Centre on a Saturday night had plenty of straight feminists in attendance.

That's why I preferred to dance with the boys, they were so much better at not telling lesbians how to be lesbians.

@ DJLippy

Here are the links you asked for, firstly The Tavistock:

gids.nhs.uk/about-us#how-long-is-the-wait-for-a-first-appointment

Here's an open letter from the parent:

transtenderlife.blogspot.ie/2017/11/the-day-id-had-enough-of-media-bullshit.html

Just as a curve ball, here's some information on hormonal treatment for boys of small stature and too tall girls:

ns.umich.edu/new/releases/1013-tall-girls-short-boys-using-hormone-therapy-to-shape-childrens-height-to-social-norms

@Haidees

You claim to be a lesbian but are not sure if a lesbian is someone same sex attracted?

How can you claim to be a lesbian if you dont know what one is?

Sorry, just a small digression but I want to revisit this comment because frankly, it’s really miffed me.

I thought my days of justifying my sexuality to straight women were long gone. Apparently not.

Using ‘claim’ in this context is a really pejorative framing. I can’t think of anything less likely to make me want to engage with you or your opinions. You could have used the word ‘identify’ which would dripped with less contempt but that, obviously, wasn’t your intention.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I am all for a decent debate and will always try to listen to other people’s opinions. But if this entire debate is about the erasure of women and their experience I don’t expect the participants to ape behaviour they are asserting is offensive and wrong.

No one's telling lesbian how to lesbian 🤔 I mean what does straight mean when you use it?

Words mean something. Lesbian means something. It's not a word that can be used to mean anything the speaker wants.

@Behold

I too was struck by the irony of trying to shut down a lesbian on a thread about lesbians erasure, while claiming to be saving lesbians being talked-over by trans women.

But hey, same as it ever was.

Het woman here who didn't rtft.

Lesbian women are the biggest threat to Patriarchy because they reject dick. Dick rejection is the biggest affront to males on a personal and political level because the most meaningful male quest is for dick validation and dick acceptance.

In other words, Patriarchy exists to maintain and expand the realm of dick.

Lesbian rejection of dick turns Patriarchy on its head. How come lesbians don't evaporate or melt or something without penetration by dick?

Because women don't actually NEED dick.

This truth is terrifying for men.

Therefore lesbians are the first in the firing line when Patriarchy fights back to quash any gains of women.

Heterosexual women need to stick up for, defend, back up and thank Goddess for lesbians. They are always on the vanguard.

I feel nothing but gratitude for lesbians, as a heterosexual woman.

A few years ago I was in a meeting with the Chair of an LGBT staff group at one of the Russell Group universities. She was very out and proud about the fact she held that position and was straight. She saw herself very much as an ally. Maybe other people did too.

But every time she spoke about how she understood the LGBT experience and would make decisions based on what she thought was best I would open my mouth to say “what the fuck do you know, you don’t speak for me” and out would come the words “well, that’s certainly an interesting perspective”. I really wish I’d said what was in my head.

If you want to be an ally, be an ally. Don’t talk over us, don’t tell us what we think or how we feel. Don’t behave as if you are entitled to our spaces, don’t behave as if you are entitled to our bodies and don’t behave as if you are entitled to an opinion on our lives. Or that we have a common experience or that you understand empathically what we have been through. You don’t.