Man Friday hits the news!

[NotAWhacktivist]

This doesn't seem to have been posted yet. Hats off to this women (she has posted here about her efforts)

Topless swimmer wades into trans row
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9a8e437c-2a35-11e8-8cd0-05c64066237c

funnily enough, they are not C19th ideas - nor C20th or C21st ideas - they are timeless - fact is fact is fact - that doesn't change because a small group of people wants it to change - fact simply is!

It is important to separate the two issues:
(1) - some people who are not happy in their biological body - all would sympathise and want them to feel comfortable
(2) - changing fact - no-one can do that...

the answer to (1) is not (2)
the answer to not feeling comfortable having been born a boy is not to argue that they can redefine fact and claim to be a girl - they can't, fact is fact.

if being uncomfortable is because of societal expectation / labelling / etc. of boy or girl - then great, let's see that expectation and labelling changed - but a boy is biologically a boy and a girl is biologically a girl - and that is fact and can not be changed.

So this whole argument must founder on the un-changing and timeless rock of fact - fact is absolute and does not change. If someone were to say that while they were born human they feel like a cat - that doesn't mean that they suddenly become a cat - fact can not be changed.

Now having accepted that - not because we need to debate it, but simply because that is what it is - then the issue becomes how do we deal with those who don't feel male / female - that is a separate and different issue...

but feeling male / female is absolutely not and never will be about biology - a boy feeling female doesn't somehow genetically and biologically change to being a girl - if born a boy, then they will always be a boy...

M1randa1

Your sons male privilege and entitlement does not trump the rights of women.
In your life it obviously does, the fact that you’re prepared to sell out your dds in support of your transgender daughter speaks volumes to your female conditioning.

You say it is not worth arguing but the reality is you have no argument. You are on a UK website advocating for a disregard of UK Equality law which will have a negative impact on a protected group. That this kibd of opinion is considered acceptable and unremarkable by political parties just goes to show the depth of society's lack of respect for women.

Sorry to other posters I lost a post to the void and didn't see your replies before my last one got through.

What mosts of the posts on here show is that most of you cannot accept anything that goes against your own narrow experience of life. You don't care who it affects, as long as it doesn't affect you.

I don't believe this is true. In fact many posters' motivations, seem to me, to be primarily for the possible impact on others.

Do any of these people have anything other than incoherent ranting and the reversing of reality - how is objecting to the interpretation of personality in terms of sexist stereotypes in any way fucking regressive? - to offer? Because I've yet to see it.

I am the mother of a daughter. Boring, old-fashioned, biological females, the both of us. And I will fight tooth and nail, until my last breath, to make this world a safer place for her. For her and for all women and girls.

She deserves safe, sex segregated spaces in which to change or take care of bodily functions. She deserves privacy. All women and girls do.

She deserves the right to request a female health care provider. All women and girls do.

She deserves to have available to her women's shelters, domestic violence support and rape crisis support, should (god forbid) she ever have the need for them. Unfortunately, in this world, too many women and girls have the need for them. And all women and girls deserve to have the option available to them.

She deserves the right to name her body and her oppression in her own words. She deserves the right to talk about female-specific health and body issues without being silenced or shamed by being called a bigot. All women and girls do.

She deserves the right to be judged by the content of her character, not by the completely arbitrary and oppressive social construct of gender. There are no such things as "girl brains" and "boy brains," just human brains. There is nothing beyond physical sex that is inherent to all girls and women. There is no one right way to be a girl, and not fitting in with gender stereotypes does not make a person "really" the opposite sex. All girls and women deserve to live in a world that doesn't try to shove them into a gendered box.

This is why I'm opposed to gender ideology. For her, and all women and girls.

I have two other daughters. I protect them by making them streetwise, not banning transgender women from their spaces. The gooly man can wait outside the toilet or changing room and grab them, if that's what you're worried about.

And I will be deep in the cold, cold ground before I ever consider the solution to male violence and female oppression to be to teach my daughter to ignore boundary violations in private spaces, and to minimize harassment in public spaces.

And I will be deep in the cold, cold ground before I ever consider the solution to male violence and female oppression to be to teach my daughter to ignore boundary violations in private spaces, and to minimize harassment in public spaces.

You and me both. Expecting women and girls to share safe spaces with men is going to increase the already alarming statistics of male on female violence. Sorry, my daughters come before your TIM.

I don't think so, no. I'm only responding to this one because I am sick of being expected to believe everything people identify themselves and I think our human rights (internationally) and our legal rights (locally) aren't just under attack but are being actively breached and people in authority are ignoring or encouraging it.

That spreads to Mumsnet moderation too. MN does have the right to be exclusive about their membership but claiming it is in the name of inclusivity is hypocritical and sneaky, and again I think is on shakey ground when it involves the censorship of a protected class of discriminated against people talking about their rights and oppression. Regardless of whether it does break the law in practice, it is unethical and not 'in the spirit' of the law.

Their response to some female critics of essentially 'go somewhere else, this place is not for you' is undisguised contempt and echoes the exclusionary rhetoric of sexist, racist, homophobic and xenophobic bigots throughout history and if we are going to talk about shame then let's put it where it belongs.

That was in response to LangCleg!

What mosts of the posts on here show is that most of you cannot accept anything that goes against your own narrow experience of life. You don't care who it affects, as long as it doesn't affect you.

No- not correct. I have a transgender (young adult) child and I am Gender Critical and deeply sceptical of much of the Trans narrative. I also love my child very much and want to see them protected, happy and fulfilled. What I don't want to see is them sacrifice their health and fertility to an ideology that is dictatorial, dogmatic and working against the hard fought rights and protections women and girls currently have. This forum provides a place where sanity and truth (mostly) prevails. Almost everyone who posts here seems to be entirely supportive of trans people's right to identify exactly as they choose, and to live safe and respected lives. What we don't accept is the TRA/MRA arguments/actions that attempt to change biological fact and to appropriate womanhood - with all the inherent difficulties, problems and dangers that entails.

I don't think so, no. I'm only responding to this one because I am sick of being expected to believe everything people identify themselves and I think our human rights (internationally) and our legal rights (locally) aren't just under attack but are being actively breached and people in authority are ignoring or encouraging it.

YY.

I don't buy this idea that transgender women are men with problems.

Great. Other opinions are available.

And I will be deep in the cold, cold ground before I ever consider the solution to male violence and female oppression to be to teach my daughter to ignore boundary violations in private spaces, and to minimize harassment in public spaces.

You and me both. Expecting women and girls to share safe spaces with men is going to increase the already alarming statistics of male on female violence. Sorry, my daughters come before your TIM.

I stand with you both and all the many other women who feel the same. People really need to get their heads around this. Because we're not going away, dying off or shutting up any time soon.

Your whole post deserves Luna.

Get used to women saying No

^^ quite

And everything else JoanSummers says - amazing

Apologies if this has been posted already. It's been taken down from the main website. Incredible.

archive.li/zTrKE

I like that article.

You did not fight for trans spaces. You fought for women’s. And you steamrolled over women in the process.

This is a huge point that keeps being skipped over in the rush to confirm "trans rights".

Well, some people are very stuck in their conservative, intolerant ways. I’m not going to engage any more because people here are not open to discussion whatever the cost to members of society that appear to be of little interest to them (except for some perceived threat). It is a shame when people only see in black and white - thinking only in terms of physical attributes but denying neurological differences. A transgender woman is not a gay man, nor an effeminate man. It is very sad that these uneducated attitudes remain in today’s society. This is an angry club that I don’t wish to be a part of. As a feminist and defender of women’s rights I will stand up for all women who identify as female.

@m1randa1

Are you standing up for these females?

twitter.com/unicornisms/status/1001740381506101248

It’s because as a lesbian she won’t have sex with transwomen & the NB crowd labels her a transphobe for it and therefore justified attacking her. That’s the reason. Because she won’t suck transwomen’s dicks and makes her boundaries known. To them that’s reason to assault her.

@m1randa1

Can I ask how your daughter sees her future relationships panning out? Is she attracted to straight men/women, lesbians or gay men? Or other transwomen/men?

My daughter is going out with a gay woman. They are very happy together.

You cannot blame all transgender people for the poor behaviour of the few. Crikey, we all know people of different genders and sexuality or ages or cultures or religions that behave badly, but you can't tar all with the same brush.

By a gay woman, do you mean a lesbian (a homosexual cis-woman, to be precise)? I'm sorry if this appears intrusive but I'm genuinely interested.

but you can't tar all with the same brush.

And yet here you are doing just that.