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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pilgrim Tucker, who spoke at the meeting last Tuesday, being stitched up on TV tomorrow?

326 replies

Datun · 04/03/2018 13:18

She has tweeted that she was invited to talk about self ID on the Victoria Derbyshire Show being aired tomorrow at 9am.

But she had no idea that the interviewer was a transactivist. They only told her afterwards.

How much longer is this bias going to be pushed by the BBC? Will a gender critical woman be invited to interview a transactivist.? You know, in the interests of ‘fairness’.

How are women supposed to counter the #nodebate when it is being rigorously upheld by the BBC?

I sincerely hope the programme is fair and balanced, despite my misgivings...

mobile.twitter.com/PilgrimTucker/status/969544468750880774

OP posts:
picklemepopcorn · 06/03/2018 11:28

Rebecca Root's fails to understand that women's refuges are more akin to witness protection than needing a quiet space to recover from 1 traumatic incident. Someone traumatised after a mugging goes to a friend or family member for TLC, not a refuge. Idiot.

GenderApostate · 06/03/2018 11:52

I’ve tweeted Root this morning about prisons, emphasising violent Men pretending (self identifying) they are Trans and giving the statistics plus the fact that 60% of Women in UK prisons have a brain injury due mostly to Male violence
(That figure was direct from a prisoners charity)
Wonder if I’ll get a response ?

Melamin · 06/03/2018 11:57

It was a good programme but the write up on the BBC website does not reflect it at all.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43255878

We have been looking it on another thread. The writer seems to be the producer, so she should have been there? twitter.com/KateAlston?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor She was thanking people on twitter that were not mentioned at all Confused

Melamin · 06/03/2018 11:58

It would have been balanced if for example Sarah Ditun might have interviewed them in the middle segment

Now that would be interesting.

holycheeseplant · 06/03/2018 12:09

@CockapooMum thank you for being so brave. You spoke so well, and you did us all proud Thanks I hope you continue to recover x

Nosetothesun · 06/03/2018 12:28

Well I'm a bit baffled now..... having looked at the BBC write up as linked above.. this is the final quote:
' Rebecca Root, an actor who transitioned in 2003, says: "But why should there be a debate at all: it's that person's life."
"They're not really doing anything to harm anybody else by saying I'm female or male of whatever," she adds.'

  • bit tricky to claim balance when this is the interviewer's position????
OldCrone · 06/03/2018 13:00

Both transwomen looked confused at times, especially the pink haired one. Like they were being asked to consider this for the first time ever... like they were new to this.

I think it's possible that they are new to the feminist arguments. The TRAs have been so successful at shutting down any debate on most social media, that they think the only other position is the conservative anti-gay one. Which would also explain Victoria Derbyshire throwing in a question linking it to being anti-gay. So once they're hit with reasonable, rational feminist arguments, they don't know what to say.

Melamin · 06/03/2018 13:10

With regards to the disparity between the actual programme and the website write up - I feel we have been here before - wasn't it the same with the moral maze or was it another programme?

vaginafetishist · 06/03/2018 13:20

That BBC write up- I love GIRES reckoning about 1% of the British population are gender non conforming 'to some degree'.Hmm

I reckon 100%.

Stop this crap.

DonkeySkin · 06/03/2018 15:57

But, the more I think about the programme the more I think it was fundamentally a pro-trans piece with some GC stuff added in to count as balance. I'm just not sure it would have had the impact we'd hope for.

That was my impression too, Spartacus. I haven't seen the whole thing, but of the parts I saw, some I think were 'wins' for the feminist side, and some were incredibly frustrating: especially the way the panelists all seemed to be avoiding spelling out the main issue - how 'gender identity' legally and ontologically obliterates sex - and how severely the discussion was constrained by the compelled language ('trans women') and the dishonest framing of the TRAs.

The parts that I thought were the most positive were the girl guide bit (NW was particularly good here), and Emma's contribution: she managed to bring the focus back to the most important consideration re: women's refuges, which is the needs of the women they serve. That must be the primary consideration in policy making here: not 'balancing' the rights of abused women with the (pseudo) right of men to have their self-image as a woman validated. I wanted to scream when VD asked one of the TIMs to explain why Emma's comment about males not being female was 'offensive' to him. Why does no one care that the TIMs' arrogant dismissal of Emma's experience might be 'offensive' to her?

How about VD asking RR: 'The way Nicola articulated that, using women and trans women, is that ok?' Unthinking deference to men's supreme authority over reality in a nutshell. Men demand to be called 'trans women', and then we have to check with them if it's 'OK' for women to call them the bullshit word they made up for themselves and forced us to adopt. Will we ever see the day when a woman will be asked on TV if it's 'OK' for men to call themselves trans women?

This is what I mean when I say that the framing of the whole discussion (not just in this instance, but everywhere) is controlled by TRAs, right down to the nonsense idea that this is a 'clash of rights'. I don't know what it would take for women to go on the front foot in this supposed 'clash of rights', which is actually an all-out assault by men on women's sex-based protections and the meaning of 'woman' itself. All I know is, if we don't manage to change the narrative that has been established by the TRAs, we've lost. I don't understand why Sarah Ditum and Nicola Williams, who both have a very firm grasp of the issues and the stakes, feel they have to parrot the myths perpetrated by TRAs and capitulate to their framing so often: e.g, SD going on a rant about 'transphobia' and NW saying, astonishingly, 'Nobody wants to take rights away from anybody.' WTF. My jaw was on the floor at that. The whole reason this issue has blown up is because trans activists are running a sociopathic campaign to OBLITERATE women's rights.

Yes, Datun, you are right: it is easy for us to criticise from the comfort of our homes and our anonymity. SD and NW are both risking a lot, personally and professionally, by being willing to publicly challenge the trans agenda, and I feel like a hypocritical shit for criticising two women who have been so brave and who have put in so much brilliant work on this issue. NW particularly - Fair Play for Women is an outstanding resource. BUT. That's part of my frustration actually. Nicola Williams has spent (probably) hundreds of hours meticulously documenting the TRA assault on women's rights, spelling out just what the legal extinguishment of 'female' as a coherent category means for women and girls in all areas of life. She, more than anyone, understands the threat that the trans movement poses to women's rights. I therefore don't understand WHY, when given the opportunity to talk about it on TV, she would instead say soothingly, 'Nobody is trying to take rights away from anybody.'

Yes they are, Nicola! You know this better than anyone! Trans activists ARE trying to take away all of women's sex-based protections and rights - Fair Play for Women was set up to fight this!

I can only imagine that she came out with that line in defensiveness - to try to refute the idea that she was trying to take away rights from trans-identified men. Which just shows the power of the TRAs to control the narrative, reverse reality and put even very knowledgeable and articulate women on the back foot.

Why not go on the front foot and point out that self-id of legal sex is actually an extremist attack on women's rights, by making the definition of 'woman' meaningless? Why should women be defensive about our very reasonable need to have 'woman' mean something in law and policy, and waste our time trying to 'prove' that we aren't bigots for not capitulating to the mad idea that any man can become a woman on his say-so? We are not the extremists here. The men who are pressing for any man to be able to identify his way into vulnerable women's spaces are, and they need to be exposed as such, not pandered to. Would it be so hard to say plainly, 'Self-ID of legal sex is an extremist idea that is unworkable in law and policy, because it conflates the objective reality of sex with the subjective feeling of gender identity'?

Why were the two male TRAs on the panel not challenged about their complete lack of concern for the safety of the group they claim to 'identify' as? Why could no one say directly to them, 'What you are pushing for is completely unreasonable and shows a shocking lack of empathy for women?', thereby putting them on the back foot? Instead we had SD going out of her way to reinforce the myth that they are terribly oppressed and face the same risks from other men that women do.

Like, why talk about male sexual predators identifying their way into women's prisons, and then say the problem is that it makes 'women and trans women' unsafe in those prisons? Not only are men who identify as women not the targets of heterosexual male predators, they are sometimes the predators themselves. WHY would it be so hard, instead of talking about how 'trans women' are at risk from, er, 'trans women', to say that female prisoners have the human right to be housed separately from males, that this is the only sensible way to run a prison system, and if a particular population of male prisoners is at elevated risk, it is a problem for the male estate to solve? Why are women so timid about calling out this madness and misogyny for what it so plainly is? Why can't women's rights be asserted boldly and without qualification or apology?

And now having typed all that I feel incredibly bad for attacking SD and NW, both of whom I admire so much, and who are putting themselves on the line in ways that I'm not, and I almost want to delete this post. But I can't, because I can't shake the frustration at how completely the TRAs control the narrative of this debate, and how powerless women apparently are to change it. They sally forth confidently, telling bald-faced lie after bald-faced lie, claiming to be 'women' while not even pretending to give a fuck about women's lives or concerns, asserting men's right to redefine reality at will, and women are crouched in a corner begging 'please just allow us this little patch of ground', all the while protesting that we care - we really do! - about the suffering of the men who are doing this to us.

AnotherTerfyNameChange · 06/03/2018 16:23

Bravo DonkeySkin thank you for putting into words the feeling that has been nagging at me for weeks. Youre brave to say it Grin any anyone who automatically thinks its transphobic/hateful needs to think again.

picklemepopcorn · 06/03/2018 16:38

I think that they successfully argued that we should be allowed to talk about it. Sarah avoided agreeing that some feminists try and shut down the debate and don't allow trans people to speak, as Clara had accepted some all TRAs do.

I suspect that attempting a full and frank disclosure of the issues would be too much, too hard for people to understand. People seem to switch off when faced with a long list of why it's a problem. They do better when shown one or two compelling, but calm, arguments. They are then more open to more discussion.

picklemepopcorn · 06/03/2018 16:40

I'm very proud of my son. JC is visiting his school soon. DS isn't there that day, but has asked mates who will be to raise a couple of issues, one of them being trans erosion of women's rights.

He was hostile initially- don't keep on about it, no one cares, it's boring. Yay. I've peak transed my men.

Cascade220 · 06/03/2018 16:44

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DonkeySkin · 06/03/2018 16:55

I suspect that attempting a full and frank disclosure of the issues would be too much, too hard for people to understand. People seem to switch off when faced with a long list of why it's a problem. They do better when shown one or two compelling, but calm, arguments.

I wasn't asking for a full and frank disclosure of the issues. I agree that that would be too much for people new to this to take in (or for one segment of a TV show to cover).

I was asking for plain language, unapologetic, assertive statements on the issue under discussion - men being allowed to self-identify into women's spaces.

Such as: 'Self ID of legal sex is an extremist idea that is unworkable in law and policy, because it makes our definitions of woman and man meaningless.'

The above statement is polite, it is factual, it could not be construed as 'phobic' by anyone with sense, and it puts the onus on the TRAs to defend the law they are pushing for.

LangCleg · 06/03/2018 17:01

I suspect that attempting a full and frank disclosure of the issues would be too much, too hard for people to understand.

But we need some balls pissing frankness! Otherwise nobody can see the threat. For example:

There is no barrier to convicted rapists and child sex offenders getting a GRC. Why not?

What will the Guides do when a parent takes them to court because their daughter got pregnant by her "translesbian" girlfriend while on a camping trip?

People understand bluntness. And if you put both of those questions to any polling panel or focus group, 99.99% of the general public would say WTF? and peak trans pronto.

Because nobody says it like it is, Joe Public isn't bothered.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 06/03/2018 17:32

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YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 06/03/2018 17:35

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DonkeySkin · 06/03/2018 17:40

Yippee, do you honestly think it would come across as bullying and bigoted to say that it is a bad idea to make the definitions of woman and man meaningless in law?

What about if LangCleg's question were put to the trans activists: There is no barrier to convicted rapists and child sex offenders getting a GRC. Why not?

Would most people view that as the question of a bully and a bigot? Or would they more likely be shocked to hear that is the case, and become instantly more invested in the issue?

DonkeySkin · 06/03/2018 17:42

Also, there are very few women out there with the ovaries to be public in their stance on this, even fewer who are prepared to be on TV, and I'm sure they're reading these threads. So unless you are 100% sure you can do better, and your strategy will work, I think it's beholden on us to support them and be grateful they're putting themselves on the front line for this.

I do support them and I am grateful to them.

RedToothBrush · 06/03/2018 17:53

Yippee, do you honestly think it would come across as bullying and bigoted to say that it is a bad idea to make the definitions of woman and man meaningless in law?

At this stage possibly. I think women need to start to take control of the narrative more before they will be in a position to be that blunt, without it being labelled - partly because of stereotypes and sexism - partly as outwardly confrontational.

I don't like it. I agree with your points, but at the same time, you are playing no to transactivists but to an audience who are going 'whats the harm, its not hurting anyone'.

Once you've been seen to be perfectly reasonable and the response is to ignore that then you can dig heels in harder. Its about reeling in people and allowing TRAs to peak them. Its all about who is seen to do what and how.

Think about who this about persuading. Its the soft liberal woman and men. Its not those who are more rigid in their views anyway.

I guess though we are all just fumbling through this. I don't know that there is an optimal solution.

But thats my take on it. This was an introduction to the story for many.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 06/03/2018 18:00

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HelenaDove · 06/03/2018 18:13

I have a lot of admiration for Pilgrim Tucker. We have tweeted each other quite a lot about Grenfell and i have kept the Grenfell thread going on the News board on here.

The way social housing tenants have been demonized needs to be addressed Most of the demonization is coming from the housing sector itself.

I didnt know she was going on Victoria LIVE about the self ID issue. Will check it out on i player.

DonkeySkin · 06/03/2018 18:28

I knew when I wrote that post that I was being an armchair critic. It felt hypocritical to even type it.

As I said I am grateful to all the women who stick their necks out on this issue.

It was more about expressing the extreme frustration I feel over how surreally the debate is being framed by the media, how unfairly women are constrained within it, and how completely men have managed to reverse reality regarding this issue. How they are allowed to assert plainly bonkers things that NOBODY believes, and have that treated as sacred doctrine, while women are pilloried for stating very basic facts. I feel like I'm watching the founding of a new, immensely powerful patriarchal religion.

YippeeKiYayMelonFarmer · 06/03/2018 18:36

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