Miranda Yardley's contribution to the Woman's Place meeting on Tuesday

[LifelongVaginaOwner]

I've always tended toward using 'transwomen' and preferred pronouns - if only out of courtesy. Miranda's points though have really made me reconsider. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

mirandayardley.com/en/contribution-discussion-womens-place-uk-meeting-27-february-2018/

Good points. Thank you for sharing. ‘Keep terfing’ 😁

Ha - keep terfing! Love it.
I don't know any transexuals or TIMs, but on this forum I refer to them as transwomen out of courtesy and compassion as the whole process can't be easy.
I understand what Miranda's saying though. Maybe I'll have to train myself not to be so nice all the time.
I saw a video of some TRAs doorstepping Jordan Peterson and constantly pestering him as to why wouldn't he call them by their pronouns and how would he feel if they called him 'her/she'? He said he'd be fine with that.
If you are so unsure of who you are that you get so upset by 'misgendering', then I suggest you need professional help.

I like that Miranda said this. I think the time for transwoman and preferred pronouns has gone. It muddies the waters and obscures the fact that we are talking about males and male behaviour.

I saw a video of some TRAs doorstepping Jordan Peterson and constantly pestering him as to why wouldn't he call them by their pronouns and how would he feel if they called him 'her/she'? He said he'd be fine with that.

I find this really interesting as it highlights the underlying belief of TRAs that the worst thing a male can be is 'womanly'.

TiMs must be women because they absolutely can't be accepted as men.

More from steve peers:

PM has swallowed a textbook on customs law. But this sort of detail is unavoidable #roadtobrexit
"Access to markets will be different" in services. Don't remember the Leave campaign saying that either #roadtobrexit
Good points on case for professional mobility and recognition of qualifications - another nod to migration issues #roadtobrexit
Inevitably an argument for financial services - interesting the PM discusses broadcasting in more detail too
waves to Murdoch #roadtobrexit
PM wants ambitious continuation of cooperation in cross border civil litigation. More on that here - t.co/3UElgRGpOE
#roadtobrexit

Sorry wrong threD

Men should be able to wear dresses and make-up if they want, and still be men. (I usually don't do those things and I'm still a woman, btw)

Miranda Yardley talks a lot of sense.

yup the more this goes forward the more I think people like Miranda and Peaches Yogourt are our heroes... and much needed!

I hope more transexuals like Miranda will find their voices - they are as under threat as women...

They door stepped someone over personal pronouns? Wtf?

Thanks for starting this Lifelong.
I agree, it makes you think and I get what Julia Long/Miranda are saying. On a personal level, I think most of us would agree to use someone's chosen pronouns as a matter of courtesy and politeness, even if I don't agree that person is actually a man or woman. This is also what Peterson said in interviews - that if a student in his class asked him to use certain pronouns, he would do so, but would never accept pronoun use being mandated.
On a political level though, gender-critical voices are accused of transphobia automatically, so surely having as many transwomen as possible countering self-ID is really important?
Debbie Hayton said "we need to take women with us" and both Debbie and Kristina don't seem to agree with Miranda on this. I wouldn't want to alienate any trans-support.
Also, some posters pointed out how confident Debbie, Kristina and Miranda were at the WPUK meeting and maybe that was down to their male socialization. Having sat behind Kristina as she spoke, I can say her hands were shaking!

This is where I think we are in danger of losing respect and losing the battle - particularly from the younger generation. If it matters so deeply to someone and they are trying to live their lives as the opposite sex, then I would always use their choice of personal pronoun. It's polite and respectful. My children and their friends would be horrified if I argued I shouldn't - and I think they'd be right.

I understand how much it grates when I look at some of the vile misogynists currently berating women - but I have to say that if feminists are seen as being deliberately hostile to individuals, as opposed to passionately assertive about the rights of women, then it just feeds the hate narrative. And to date, I don't see that hate on our side. Fury, outrage, fear, exasperation and determination but not hate.

I am being truthful when I say that trans people should be able to live their lives in safety and free from discrimination and bullying. And therefore if someone wishes me to use a particular pronoun, then I will use it out of common courtesy.

This is a world wide phenomenon and we won't take the majority with us if we are seen to be bullies of individuals! That's how the other side operates and why they are in trouble at present. There are so many battles to fight and we MUST take people with us or this toxic movement will never be successfully challenged.

I think Miranda has taken her thinking to its logical conclusion. She has always said she is not a woman (and now that being a trans woman is a result of a crisis in masculinity and needs to regarded from that perspective) so it makes sense not to use female pronouns and drop the concept of 'trans woman'. Trans women are a male thing and should be owned by men (just as trans men are a female thing and many of us understand the pressures they are under).

However, I think Miranda is probably unusual in reaching that position. She recently tweeted a picture of herself as a man and said that, yes, that was her and that man was still her. I don't know Miranda, but did that show a final change in her thinking to where she is now?

Other trans women who think in a similar way will not be there yet and may find that last step difficult (if they can ever make it). If they are decent and sympathetic people, I am happy to afford them basic courtesies. I'll address them accordingly.

The goal is, of course, a society where the likes of Miranda (and Grayson Perry - a confident man in a dress) can present as they are and be happy and confident to be named men; and can enter male spaces accepted as men too. I think it was Kristina who said that one of the roots of [male] transgenderism is society's fear of feminine men. And I reckon we can add to that the general devaluing of what is perceived as female.

flamingowings
Funnily enough, Kristina, Debbie and Miranda are talking about gaslighting in this context now - on Kristina's Twitter account.

I will use pronouns to mis-sex people known to me personally if I like them and respect them. I will use pronouns to mis-sex people I know personally if I think they would suffer distress and are vulnerable enough to be at risk if I did not.

I will use neutral pronouns or avoid pronouns altogether to avoid causing pointless arguments online.

I will never be coerced into mis-sexing people if I don't want to or I see it as inappropriate and I will decide what is inappropriate as I see fit. I don't care what they think about that.

I think it's good that that sort of conversation is happening. And it needs to happen amongst trans people themselves. Just as evolutions in feminist thought need to come from discussions among women, trans people need to be able to work out who they are and where they are going and self-critique their own movement with many voices; painful though it may be at times.

Under the current trans dogma, this is not happening and isn't even considered desirable

Someone posted. I'm referring to the conversation between Miranda, Debbie and Kristina!

"This is where I think we are in danger of losing respect and losing the battle"

Using sex pronouns hasn't earnt us a lot of respect so far, Germaine Greer uses them and look how she is treated.

I think we are losing, in part, by being inconsistent - we say that it is impossible to change sex, yet will happily call a man she and a (trans) woman. We also allow certain men to become women - the HSTS when they look and behave exactly like the ones we aren't happy about.

We don't have to be mean, but we don't have to use 'she' either.

BigDeskBob
I do understand your point. I am just concerned about taking as many others along with us. This isn't a battle we can win without a majority 'on our side'.
Strategically, we need to peak trans as many people as we can. Our arguments are bullet proof - but I just don't think that the younger generation - who we need onside if this isn't to be another Brexit debacle - will expect us to demonstrate a level of tolerance. Safeguarding, children being groomed and medically experimented on, right to privacy and dignity, sport - these are all huge issues that people understand and generally agree with. Refusing to call their Dad, (now called Mary) or their friend Rose (now called Stephen) by their preferred pronoun will seem petty and give credence to those who say that TERFs are just hateful bigots.

I think we need to stand back and be a bit strategic and political about this - but maybe I've been watching too much West Wing recently

Gah I do think that the younger generation will expect us to demonstrate a level of tolerance

I will not lie to appease men.
We are taught all our lives to lie to appease men because they are a threat to us but naming the problem is not polite.
I will not lie to appease these abusive men.

I don't know what I think about Miranda Yardley. I don't understand why he's held up as some sort of messiah on feminism. He's been happy to be called she, her, and has called himself a transwoman.

Is his sudden change about this for our benefit? Why wasn't he saying this year's ago?

I don't know what I think about Miranda Yardley. I don't understand why he's held up as some sort of messiah on feminism. He's been happy to be called she, her, and has called himself a transwoman.

I agree. I suspect Miranda has her own agenda. She refers to herself as 'she' and uses a feminine first name, so is this not 'living a lie'? I am also suspicious of the fact that people swallow whatever she says simply because she says she is on our side. How do we really know that?

I think that refusing to use preferred pronouns is likely to increase the sentiment that feminists are bigots. In everyday life where we have to work with and teach trans people, it will cause us problems. It will seem as if we don't respect trans people. My opinion is that we need to focus on the important issue- that is that there must be remaining protections for women based on biological sex, including same-sex spaces, prohibition of sex discrimination, and initiatives to help biologically born women to achieve equality. There must also be the right to discuss biology and the issues it throws up, without being accused of transphobia.

By telling us to refuse to call trans people by their preferred pronouns, I feel Miranda is trying to shit-stir and this will ultimately weaken the cause. She has her own reasons for disliking trans people which I am unclear about.

I do understand your point. I am just concerned about taking as many others along with us.

I think the way to take people on with us is to find a way to get it into the public consciousness that 80% of TIMs keep their dicks.

And not only that, 80% are very, very, very keen on their ladydicks and very, very, very keen that everybody else is required to be equally keen about their ladydicks. And not only that, the longer this goes on, the bigger the proportion of TIMs with ladydicks and smaller the proportion of transsexuals.

Once people understand this, they won't be panicking about rudeness and pronouns. And perhaps we could get back to seeing fetishists as dodgy bastards best avoided and transsexuals as vulnerable people whose rights need protecting.

I don't know what I think about Miranda Yardley. I don't understand why he's held up as some sort of messiah on feminism. He's been happy to be called she, her, and has called himself a transwoman.

I think this is overly suspicious. If you read Miranda's blog, you can see how thinking has evolved over time and gradually become more and more militant on the side of women.

Not to say that Miranda doesn't enjoy a bit of controversy.