Miranda Yardley's contribution to the Woman's Place meeting on Tuesday

[LifelongVaginaOwner]

I've always tended toward using 'transwomen' and preferred pronouns - if only out of courtesy. Miranda's points though have really made me reconsider. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

mirandayardley.com/en/contribution-discussion-womens-place-uk-meeting-27-february-2018/

For what it's worth, I don't just think that Miranda is unusual, I think he's unique. I don't know of any other TIM who holds his exact views.

I agree that he is probably having his own personal journey on this. It wouldn't surprise me if he detransitioned at some point. Precisely because he has listened to the feminist discourse on the issue of gender.

I also agree that sometimes the automatic, over enthusiastic appreciation of TIMs speaking out is galling, to say the least.

I had a little chat with Miranda when we were watching the protesters.

I can't recall, verbatim, the conversation, but I do know that I expressed my opinion that his inclusion was strategic and political.

And he agreed.

I think the expression is if you can't box hard, box clever.

I see Miranda as more or less a detransitioner. I don't know how he would feel about me saying that. I wonder if the only reason he doesn't say that is because he might do more good as a 'gender critical transwoman' than as a detransitioned man who has had surgery. It's not my place to say where he's at, but that's my observation anyway.

I've already said I agree with your position Uterati. I do.
No such thing as trans
No man ever a woman
Want sex distinction categorically preserved
No pretending or lying

We are simply of a different opinion on what tactics and strategy will be successful in getting us there.

Cross post!

The Uterati, I think we are conceptualising the problem differently.

I see transgenderism (and transsexualism) as a manifestation of harmful cultural beliefs about sex and gender. I don't see trans-identified people as standing apart from the rest of the culture. I'm therefore not averse to their having a part in the conversation that feminists are trying to open up. The fact that they might have undergone extreme bodily modifications isn't a reason for me to automatically reject them. I think it is extreme that people do this to their bodies, but a lot of human behaviour when in psychic distress is extreme.

I agree that feminists should always prioritise women's voices, though.

I also see him as unique Datun. I'm hoping others follow his path.

There are several knocking around on FB and YouTube of his ilk. Jenn Smith, Hope Lye, Aoife Assumpta Hart (before he went bonkers, but has now wiped his internet history and is insinuating his way in feminist circles again - with a few changes to what it is that he is identifying as - pre-bonkers = Irish Catholic schoolgirl; post-bonkers = Welsh schoolgirl. Who the fuck knows....). There is another one who is friends with Miranda (American - can't remember the name Rhea? Raya? Can't remember.). There was another Jen (English) who has since disappeared. There was Helen (less said the better). There was Jacqueline Andrews who was prominent in Gender Apostates, died very suddenly, and was then eviscerated by Aiofe Assumpta Hart.

So there are quite a few knocking around who are plus or minus the same as Miranda.

And they all get idolised and fawned over.

Yeah - fight dirty. But I am concerned that the need to 'find the good ones' makes fighting dirty very risky.

But a man who dies what he does to his body and then says 'I am a man' is fucking weird.

As weird as my TRIC who dons blackface, including by making use of surgery and medicine, wears 'Black clothes' and adopts a 'Black name'. Anyone who did that, even if they still said they were White would be seen as weird. IN FACT - they would be seen as MORE WEIRD for doing that, whilst still asserting that they were White.

A man who does all of that, wears 'women's clothes', and adopts a 'woman's name', and still says he is a man, is weird. I think we should question whether this is more or less weird than a man who does all that and says he is a woman. Is it less weird? I don't think it is.

I would like to see more (if they would wish to put heads above the parapet) female detransitioners included in the debate. Their reasons for transition and detransition and wider perspectives are needed and I wonder how much speaking for them we all do here. Also, I follow one or two gender critical females who are transitioning now as a last resort attempt to address chronic body dysmorphia rather than from a belief that they are men or wish to become men. This is a challenging perspective but we probably need to hear it.

I honestly think that this is such a crisis that we need all voices.

I appreciate that feminist organising spaces should and must prioritise women's voices - often even exclude male voices.

Perhaps the problem is that this hasn't reached wider society enough yet that there are any non-feminist spaces to even have a discussion that includes males and trans-identified males?

A man who does all of that, wears 'women's clothes', and adopts a 'woman's name', and still says he is a man, is weird

See I don't have a problem with men rejecting masculinity, as long as they admit their ongoing maleness

What's the endpoint for transitioners though?
Either they stay entrenched, or end up...where?

I'm not interested in fighting every tiny battle to the detriment of the bigger picture. I give myself a free pass for performing a bit of femininity when circumstances call for it because I accept I'm a product of my socialisation and I can't undo an entire lifetime's conditioning without analysis paralysis. So I shave my legs once in a while, let myself off the hook and fight the bigger battles. Is it weird that I think it's wrong that women feel they should shave their legs yet still I do it every now and then? Yes, it's hypocrisy on my part. But it's a minor concession that keeps me functioning and I'm not actually advocating it as a good thing.

If Miranda wears what he wants and knows he's a man then he is an example of broken stereotypes. Which I'm OK with.

I would like to see more (if they would wish to put heads above the parapet) female detransitioners included in the debate

This x 1000

Tallulah - it's more the surgery and hormones that I meant. A man who does all of that and still says I am a man is bloody weird. What the hell is he doing???

There is a difference between breaking gender stereotypes, which is great, and donning womanface, which is not.

I think these analogies, here I used blackface, are very useful in examining whether how we conceive those who adopt womanface and how we react to them.

Yes yes to more female detransitioners.

"I see transgenderism (and transsexualism) as a manifestation of harmful cultural beliefs about sex and gender."

But transexuals/transgender/transwhatevers and their supporters don't see it that way. It's seen as a positive movement. And let's face it, lots of men have done very well out of been trans, they have more attention and more of a voice than they would have had.

If they think all of this is harming women and they are on our side, wouldn't they detransition?

I've seen too many threads on here, where MIT put on a charm offensive to win as many of us over as possible. They will say anything to get us to say, 'we are not against all MIT, just the bad ones'. How many wives of MIT say their husbands are charming to strangers and bastards to live with?

Don't get me wrong, I will work with anyone to stop childhood transitions. I will do and say whatever anyone want to here to make women spaces female again. I just think we should look at what men are doing as well as saying.

No, I don't see too much that's 'weird' about a trans-identified person moving away from the ideology but not rejecting their history and bodily reality as a transsexual person. I don't care if men want to step outside the accepted behavioural and presentation norms for their sex, as long as they aren't trying to colonise women's existence.

analysis paralysis

I am so stealing that for regular use!

God, I'm so slow at typing.

The female detransitioners voice would be good to reduce childhood transness (made up word).

What is he actually famous for, apart from being trans?

For speaking up, again and again, under a tide of abuse, about the utter bollocks that is trans activism? Miranda isn't getting applause for being trans, IMO, but for years and years of activism, and often acting as a lightening rod, too. And sure, Miranda could have a change of attitude, but so could any of us. If we have any chance of getting anywhere, then we all need to work together in as good faith as we can manage. I understand and respect the views of women who don't want to work together with any men on this issue, but I've been very glad to have Miranda on our side, and hope that continues.

And someone else mentioned detransitioning - I don't even know what detransitioning means, in this context. If someone who current societal norms regards as a transwoman is saying "but I'm a gender nonconforming man", how to describe their journey? (And that's a totally different journey, btw, from someone who regrets their transition - and I do know some of those.)

A man who does all of that and still says I am a man is bloody weird.

I think Miranda would probably agree with you!

Look, perhaps this what it looks like when somebody has had such severe body dysmorphia that they have done all of that - but then make it out the other side? Perhaps this is what "I used to be dysmorphic" looks like?

Perhaps we need to know this because perhaps there are going to be a great many Mirandas if the extreme trans narrative is ever defeated.

I don't know. You'd have to ask Miranda, I suppose.

I don't even know what detransitioning means, in this context

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I meant in the context of voices we need rather than the context of should TIM voices be included, and I was referring to women who were FTM and have now detransitioned.

Doneky - but what is a 'trans-identified person'? What is a 'transsexual'? How are these things real? These are not intended to refer to a 'gender-non-conforming-man', because otherwise the terms would not exist.

'trans-identified person' and 'transsexual' are not intended to mean 'man who thinks gender is bullshit and just prefers wearing a dress and a bit of lippy'. We have a word for that it is 'man'.

So what do these terms mean? What are they supposed to be referring to?

I'm not singling you out in this! It's only that you are the most recent poster to use these terms.

We need to be so careful in how we think about these men, and the terms we use to refer to them and to conceptualise them. This is part of what I meant by the danders of fighting dirty and using whatever weapons we have. We need to be careful about the costs to ourselves, because I believe our socialisation (and theirs) can work against us so easily. Hence, I have seen so many 'solid' gender critical feminists lapping up everything these men say.

We need to guard against that. And part of that is calling a spade a spade: calling a man a man.

Lang - I think there are far fewer of them who are visible. That in itself is a manifestation of gendered socialisation.

I can only think of a couple, both USA. One was on FB but has disappeared. Another had a few videos on YouTube.

Miranda isn't getting applause for being trans, IMO, but for years and years of activism, and often acting as a lightening rod, too

I just can't see how he can speak out about the very thing he is doing and benefiting from. Many women have put in years of activism.

A man who does all of that, wears 'women's clothes', and adopts a 'woman's name', and still says he is a man, is weird

See I don't have a problem with men rejecting masculinity, as long as they admit their ongoing maleness

I'd go even further and say I am actively in favour of men rejecting their masculinity, while admitting their ongoing maleness.

And I'd especially like to move as far as possible from the idea of "women's clothes" and "men's clothes" anyway. I thought we were the ones that were beyond all that.

Possibly it's an age thing, for me. In my youth I knew straight men who wore skirts and painted their nails, and sure, some were wankers, but some were "oh, hey, we can get away with wearing skirts now, I like it". (I had a similar revelation about a decade ago about nail polish, which I had never worn. I was buying some for my sister, who likes it, and me and DS went OH WHAT IS THIS IT'S SO SHINY and I bought some for us and went mad with it. I don't wear it often, and I apply it with all the skill of a toddler fingerpainting, but it's PAINT and it goes on your NAILS, what's not to love?) On a slightly different axis, I've always known gay men, including plenty who do drag, and use she/her pronouns, and that's never until now been about claiming biological womanhood. (I know lots of women here really don't like drag, but I don't have a problem with it.)

So, yeah, there isn't any such thing as women's clothes. (Even if Eddie Fucking Izzard has changed his mind on this.)

Many women have put in years of activism.

Yeah, and I'm one of them. It's not a zero-sum thing.

TheUterati - I follow one Scottish detransitioner. Lovely person. I do think this perspective is vital because I am certain that just as the numbers of girls being referred to GIDS is seeing the biggest rise, the biggest cohort of regrets is going to be women. If we're thinking ahead, we, as sisters, need to be ready and armed with the best ways to support them. And the best route to that is to listen to those already here.