A New Feminist

[Chartreuseveil]

Hi all. As I age feminism interests me more and more, I am quite late to it and am picking my way through the ideas and theories. On the trans issues...I work with a woman who was born a man, has had reassignment surgery and is married to a man. In the professional environment there has never been any question of her not being treated as a woman, using female toilets etc. I didn’t know her pre-transition and I don’t think of her as a trans woman, just as a woman albeit biologically she is not. She defines herself as a woman, the word trans doesn’t feature and people meeting her now would never know she’d been born a man unless someone else told them. I anticipate that no sensible person has any issue with the decisions she’s made and living the life that makes her happy. However I’m unsure how any views she may express in relation to issues affecting woman would be perceived. Would feminists consider her views invalid by virtue of her chromosomal make up? She’s a high achieving business owner and I know she’s experienced sexism from men in professional negotiations. Can she call that sexism? Is there a distinction in how we perceive her experience and views compared with Monroe Bergdorf? I realise my views are for me to define but I want to be informed when I do that so I ask these questions with open minded curiosity. Thank you!

Feminism isn't a thought police.
Transsexuals are generally more than welcome in feminism and women's spaces.

The Transgender thing has only dominated feminism discourse since Transgenderism got latched onto by AGPs and mouthy teenagers having an identity crisis. These people appear under the Trans umbrella far more frequently than genuine transsexuals (Old skool transsexuals). Most OSTs are quietly getting on in life, not demanding laws are rewritten and women's spaces are invaded by people who make no attempt to "pass" nor think they should have to.

Within the trans own community your colleague would be called "Truscum" and not respected.

Yes your colleague quite probably does experience sexism the same as women if they pass as much as you say.

How do you know your colleague is a transwoman if it is never spoken of and they pass?

Your colleague would have nothing in common with me or many women I know, would have benefited from growing up as a boy and being perceived as such by all.
They won't have suffered ANY of the biological issues that are unique to women.
There will be no menstrual issues requiring toilet facilities and sanpro accommodations.
They won't suffer maternity discrimination.
Noone will pass them over for a job thinking they might get pregnant inconveniently
They'll never need to beg for breastfeeding breaks.
You say they have experienced sexism, but this isn't true, as they are categorically not the female sex.

You are free to see them as you wish, as I would be free to do so if I knew them.
I would see them as a man, and I would object to being forced to share intimate female segregated space with them. I would support their right to their own private, discreet space, and I would support their right to not face discrimination. It is not discrimination for a male person to be refused by others in being treated as a female person.

A woman is simply the female of the human species. Anything you layer on top of that is a stereotype.

Your friend may not be as actively harmful or woman-hating as Bergdorf. But they are contributing, in their own way, to an environment that demonises women for saying "excuse us, but we are not the same as you".

If transwomen respected women they would accept when we differentiate ourselves from them.

His rights have superceded the rights of everyone at your workplace who is actually female. This isn't a benign thing.

If transwomen respected women they would accept when we differentiate ourselves from them.

This is the crux of it for me.

Patodp she is definitely an OST and it’s shocking to think she’d be called scum. Your comment about thought police is helpful, I’ve never been a card carrier for any set of views, beliefs or organisation and could never be.

barrack I know she’s a trans woman as a couple of colleagues knew her pre-transition, one man revelled in telling other men (never women). I overheard a group of male colleagues talking along the lines “god you wouldn’t want to see that naked”. So sad, what happened to basic humanity. I think your response has helped reinforce my view that I can’t take a blanket position on it, I have to take each person, their circumstances and views as they come.

I can only speak for me... It's a very complex multi-layered debate which is why this should be debated openly and free from judgement.

I have no issues with anyone wanting to live as the opposite sex or non binary or whatever. At the end of the day who wouldn't respect someone who just wants to get on with their life and not bother anybody? I feel a bit sorry for people like your friend. They have gone to great efforts to treat their gender dysphoria which is why I get annoyed at the movement to scrap what is in place for a simpler system to bypass health professionals and declare yourself man or woman. GD is no laughing matter and personally I don't believe you can be a man trapped in a womans body or vice versa. Those with GD often have other mental health issues, so seeing a doctor and a psychiatrist I feel is essential. Hormones, surgery only help aleviate the burden that is GD but it will never allow you to change sex. I don't think biology should be ignored, there are men, women and a very small number of intersex. The mantra transwomen are women is utterly ridiculous. Asking the rest of us to change the language when more than 99% of us are happy in our bodies is a bit much considering we are already respectful of other people's feelings.

There is also the risk that making it easier to switch genders does invite all sorts of unsavoury characters. Sexual predators have no shame pretending to be something they're not to get access to what they seek and I think changes in the GRA will make it easier for the dishonest types. And in your friend's interests, these types can give trans people a bad name and tarnish their reputation. Is it not better for everyone to suss out who is genuine and who poses a threat? Self ID removes this barrier.

I also have an issue with the trans agenda being pushed. Growing up is hard enough especially now where it feels as though young people are very self image orientated thanks to social media. Questioning their gender feels a bit much considering it shouldn't be much of anything. More labels!! I don't think trans charities should be at the forefront advising doctors and politicians and also in schools!! It's a mental health condition and should be treated as such as well as with respect and dignity.

Good luck

Thanks sid for that very considered response. I am nowhere near the level of intellect of many who debate this and so I need to guard against taking an over simplistic view. I agree totally that it’s complex and multi layered and I finding myself conflicted at times.

I think the behaviour of trans people is what I judge against and I think that should be true of any individual. Hypocrisy and hatred should be called out. Whether someone has the shared experience of PMT doesn’t come into it for me

Whether someone has the shared experience of PMT doesn’t come into it for me

Never heard anyone say it came into it for them either.

I don't think it is about individuals. It has been so for years transsexual women like your friend have been accepted socially as women and treated as women. I don't think any chanfes to gender law will make any difference to her, whether or not self ID is implemented into law.

Never heard anyone say it came into it for them either

Barrack’s response seems to indicate otherwise, Quentin

If your colleague is living quietly as a woman, I personally would have no problem. As far as I am concerned it is not his/her fault that the trans agenda has taken this out pf the realms of peaceful cohabitation and into an aggressive political agenda backed with violence. I also find it very sad that your male colleagues were saying such things. Your colleague’s lifestyle is not harming them.

In my opinion he/she may have experienced some sexism if he/she passes for female. I know it isn’t impossible. Some homosexual transwomen in particular can look genuinely feminine. If he/she is married and transitioned early, he/she might well have been considered as someone who might get pregnant. Nobody has ever asked to see my birth certificate at an interview.

Presumably when he/she started using the womens’ toilets, it was not the big issue it is now. It doesn’t sound like he/she endangers anyone by being there, and indeed, other than as hearsay, you have no actual proof he/she is trans at all. It is unfortunate that gossiping men have made this an issue.

There are some trans women involved in the WPUK and I have no problem with that at all.

Chartreuseveil

Pre transgenderism, your friend would be no problem.

Because it didn't matter.

Transsexuals were, and are, few and far between. So no-one really minded. Because they didn't need to.

No-one would have to have analysed an actual ideology. It was just a man with gender dysphoria. Navigating life 'as a woman' to relieve the symptoms.

So compassion, courtesy and kindness would have been risk free and without implication or damage.

All that's changed.

Unfortunately for your friend, his gender dysphoria has been turned into a stick with which to beat women.

It's gone so far that women have become a relentless and bloody target for the ideology.

Is that his fault? No.

Does it mean women can give any quarter? No they can't.

They can understand him. But, unfortunately for your friend, the very reason he presents as female matters now.

A lot.

His reasons could have been ignored before, because they weren't creating any significant damage.

They are now.

Gender is recognised as a hierarchy with women at the bottom. When a man decides it's a cure for his symptoms, he fails to acknowledge that.

By failing to acknowledge it, you are buying into it.

By buying into it, you are perpetuating it.

By expressing an opinion, 'as a woman', your friend is maintaining the damaging fiction that being a woman is a set of gender stereotypes.

If he passes, he will, of course have some sexism directed towards him.

But none of it will be biology based.

And most of women's sex based protections will never apply to him.

He will have his own unique set of needs. Which don't apply to women.

So in answer to your question.

Do we understand your friend? Yes.

Can he speak for women? No.

I'm sure he's a perfectly lovely person. It's not about individuals. So it's irrelevant, I'm afraid.

barrack didnt mention PMT

quentin I think you understand the point I was making.

*Pre transgenderism, your friend would be no problem.

Because it didn't matter.

Transsexuals were, and are, few and far between. So no-one really minded. Because they didn't need to*

Right up there with Arthurian legend for historical accuracy, that is. When was this mythical period in history? Anyone able to give some dates at all?

Right up there with Arthurian legend for historical accuracy, that is. When was this mythical period in history? Anyone able to give some dates at all?

Sure. You little sea lion, you.

When the gender recognition act was first ratified, it was considered there would be about 5000 people who are affected.

See the history of the GA on Fair Play for Women.

It was designed for men with gender dysphoria. Not for men with autogynephilia.

None of your male lesbians, transwomen are biological women nonsense, gender is your pink/blue brain guff, homosexuality is a personal preference bollocks.

About 37 people a year were diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

As opposed to the 2000 kids a year that are showing up at gender clinics now.

You can argue all day long day that transvestites haven't taken over moment (at the expense of transsexuals and women) but I'd ask you to give me citations for that.

And it would need you to explain why sex offenders account for half of all transwomen in prison.

Alunerexplorer how old are you? I am not that old and until recently transgender people were as rare as hens teeth and caused no issues as far as I know at all. But you know that.

I think you'll find that some feminists reject post-op transsexuals in women's spaces in any circumstances, some will make an exception for the ones who pass and who aren't obnoxious behaviorally, some are fine with actual transsexuals but object to the Bergdorf's (the problem with which being that technically Paris Lees is a post-op transsexual, and Lees is as sexist as it gets and actively harmful to women when he presents his views as being a woman's views, so "is a transsexual" isn't actually as useful a distinction as you might think), and some are fully on board the self-ID train. I suspect that the latter group is much smaller than you would think of you were looking only at the media, Twitter, etc.

And it would need you to explain why sex offenders account for half of all transwomen in prison.

Are there very many transwomen in prison?

Datun you'll have to forgive me but I have no idea what the reference to seal lions is all about.

I don't need a history lesson about the GRA: about Goodwin & I v United Kingdom (2002), which led to it, or Corbett v Corbett (1970). My historical lens is a little wider than that.

In 1919, the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was founded and headed by Magnus Hirshfield. Aside from providing free medical and therapeutic help of various kinds, it also advocated for proper sex education, women's emancipation, contraception, gay rights and so on. It also built a body of research into, and established the standard of care and treatment for, trans men and women, advocating transition and affirmation directly as a result of that research.

That famous picture of Nazi's burning books? (I hope it's uploaded properly). That was the raid on the clinic in 1933 by Hitler's Brownshirts: all of their books and all their research (not just into trans healthcare, but also research into better health care for gay men and lesbian women) was destroyed.

So much knowledge about all of this, lost, gone, literally up in smoke. And bodies got added to that toll.

Now on the subject of Ray Blanchard and his... I'm honestly not sure that I have a polite word for him and that pile of stinking putrid nonsense 'autogynephilia' which should be dropped back down the hell mouth from where it came. There were things that briefly appeared in the 1980's (Betamax for example) which quickly proved to be entirely unfit for purpose. Unlike Betamax, Blanchard's theory still get's hefted around like a ghetto blaster on the shoulder - another fad of the '80's which died out when everyone discovered ear phones were much less hassle.

Scientists in this century however are - like Hirsfield in the previous century - not only discovering how complex both sex AND gender are (and that actually both have biological underpinnings), but that attempting to label people with made-up psychiatric conditions is (unsurprisingly) entirely counter productive. For reference off the top of my head for that I'll point you to the Endocrine Society.

I need to read and investigate with regard to trans prisoners (I prefer not to make a point until I've done so). Until then, I will say this - rape/dv/ipv etc are acts of patriarchal violence reproduced mostly by men, but by others in some cases (ipv/dv in LGBT relationships occurs in approximately 25% of them, more or less).

It is always a choice and anyone who makes that choice has to own it.

My friend lives her life as I do. Works hard, enjoys the fruits of her labour with her partner, family orientated. Under the radar. The absence of ovaries is irrelevant day to day. I’m sad that where she might once have been accepted, she now wouldn’t be. I think that was the reason for my post, to find that out. But in her circle she is as accepted as she ever was.

What about trans men? How are they viewed by women?

But alunerexplorer you cannot change sex no matter how much you know about history. To be male or female is not a made up condition or complex.

Chart I agree with you. Real genuine trans people are going to suffer as a result of the few.

I am a feminist sympathetic to your point of view OP.

It is complicated

barrack had a long insightful post and you picked up on PMT?

Trans activism in its current form is removing the ability of old school transsexuals to fly under the radar, which does not benefit them at all. Which is why some of them object to what's being said and done in their name.

I think the problem op is that you and see the potential withdrawal of rights from our friends.

Datun, if I understand her, challenges this by asking us to remember all the women whose human rights are fragile/vulnerable. She says there is a limit on how far you can reconcile those rights with those of trans women.