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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A New Feminist

89 replies

Chartreuseveil · 01/03/2018 14:37

Hi all. As I age feminism interests me more and more, I am quite late to it and am picking my way through the ideas and theories. On the trans issues...I work with a woman who was born a man, has had reassignment surgery and is married to a man. In the professional environment there has never been any question of her not being treated as a woman, using female toilets etc. I didn’t know her pre-transition and I don’t think of her as a trans woman, just as a woman albeit biologically she is not. She defines herself as a woman, the word trans doesn’t feature and people meeting her now would never know she’d been born a man unless someone else told them. I anticipate that no sensible person has any issue with the decisions she’s made and living the life that makes her happy. However I’m unsure how any views she may express in relation to issues affecting woman would be perceived. Would feminists consider her views invalid by virtue of her chromosomal make up? She’s a high achieving business owner and I know she’s experienced sexism from men in professional negotiations. Can she call that sexism? Is there a distinction in how we perceive her experience and views compared with Monroe Bergdorf? I realise my views are for me to define but I want to be informed when I do that so I ask these questions with open minded curiosity. Thank you!

OP posts:
hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 16:41

There is a vid on another thread of Portland City uni, Oregon. An evolutionary biologist said there are biological differences between men and women, height, for instance. A whole section of the student body walked out saying it was brainwashing and fascist.

It’s one thing hearing about such nonsense, but quite something to see them in action.

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 16:53

I do think it's a type of homophobia.Or discrimination. We certainly seem to feel sorry for them. Whatever is behind it, it's obvious we don't perceive them real men.

It’s a different angle; I’ll need to give it some thought. I suppose the failed man defaulting to woman category thing could be underpinned by homophobia and/or misogyny.

IcedPurple · 02/03/2018 17:16

No Iced, because that wouldn’t identify her as a man.

No indeed it wouldn't. Only having a penis and a Y chromosome would identify her as a man. Just like only having a vagina and an XX chromosome identifies you as a woman.

A man cannot be a woman.

A woman cannot be a man.

My friend identifies as a woman.

If I 'identified' as Japanese, on the basis of liking sushi and owning a few bonsai trees, could I demand that actual Japanese people accept me as such, with all the benefits that would entail?

Catinthebath · 02/03/2018 17:27

I agree Iced she cannot be a woman but she is living her life as one and I support her in that. I realise many would not accept my friend but whilst recognising the conflicts and tensions of this issue, I do. The biological facts don’t change that and don’t invalidate her life.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 02/03/2018 17:57

the video is interesting.

thanksjaneshusbandatcaresouth · 02/03/2018 18:00

To my eyes, the protestors look like silly teenagers who think they are sticking it to the man.

It was said above that impressionable teens jump on the bandwagon I think...?

Datun · 02/03/2018 18:01

Catinthebath

It's not about individuals. There's nothing wrong with you supporting your friend.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 18:14

datun

I agree

And i am not referring to catinthebath at all, but thats what i find is more of the more infuriating aspects of this

Some posters seem to think that no gender critical poster knows anyone who is trans or gay

LangCleg · 02/03/2018 18:14

It's not about individuals. There's nothing wrong with you supporting your friend.

Exactly.

A tiny (and by tiny, I mean tiny) population of post-SRS transsexuals exist. And these folk do genuinely inhabit a grey area in psycho-social terms.

There are so few of them that they don't really present a problem.

Nothing to do with the transgenderism movement or gender identity ideology, which must be fought at all costs.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 18:15

Oh sorry

And that those posters could possibly be supportive

Terfinater · 02/03/2018 20:08

Tra's believe that a woman/ female is a set of stereotypes and behaviours. Most women find that offensive and misogynistic.

But, deep down some of us must also believe that woman/ female is a set of stereotypes and behaviours. Why else do we accept gay men into our spaces and think of him as a female?

Tim performing overly sexual stereotype = No
Tim living quietly = Yes.

I'm not happy to segregate by stereotypes and behaviours.That is exactly what tra's are proposing. It is the male body i object to, not the behaviours he performs of the costume he wears.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 20:30

But, deep down some of us must also believe that woman/ female is a set of stereotypes and behaviours. Why else do we accept gay men into our spaces and think of him as a female?

I don't think of them as female and never have. I used to be willing to accept them into women's spaces based on the "oh but they're not doing any harm" argument and not having thought it through properly, and have now changed my mind. It's not logical, it's not fair to women who find the presence of any male traumatic, and it's far too difficult to police if we were to argue that group A is allowed in and group B isn't.

SnibbleAgain · 02/03/2018 20:46

"We nearly all agree that spaces should be segregated by sex, not gender. Why then do we afford the gay man the right to be there wearing his woman costume? Why aren't we offended by that costume and the belief that liking men means he's a woman? The only explanation that I can think of for this is that we do not consider that gay man is a real man. And if he's not a real man ,well, then he must be a type of woman ,so he's welcome and can come in. It's an uncomfortable thought but perhaps one we should address."

Women have for a long time let gay men into their circles in a way that they will not let straight men in, however they are dressed. Because we do not perceive them as a threat, we can be fairly confident that they actually like us and are not just trying to get into our knickers.

Most TIMs are "lesbians" though, aren't they, now? Or at least many of the loudest TRAs are.

Patodp · 03/03/2018 07:47

Why else do we accept gay men into our spaces and think of him as a female

That's not what happens with OSTs (unless you really do not know they are trans).
Women accept them into the realm of womanhood out of courtesy and a feeling of kinship, you assume they have sympathy and empathy of womanhood far exceeding that of non trans males.

Also, they fancy men. They are not going to pin you down and rape you. They pose virtually no threat.
So we accept them. We do not believe they are female.

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