A New Feminist

[Chartreuseveil]

Hi all. As I age feminism interests me more and more, I am quite late to it and am picking my way through the ideas and theories. On the trans issues...I work with a woman who was born a man, has had reassignment surgery and is married to a man. In the professional environment there has never been any question of her not being treated as a woman, using female toilets etc. I didn’t know her pre-transition and I don’t think of her as a trans woman, just as a woman albeit biologically she is not. She defines herself as a woman, the word trans doesn’t feature and people meeting her now would never know she’d been born a man unless someone else told them. I anticipate that no sensible person has any issue with the decisions she’s made and living the life that makes her happy. However I’m unsure how any views she may express in relation to issues affecting woman would be perceived. Would feminists consider her views invalid by virtue of her chromosomal make up? She’s a high achieving business owner and I know she’s experienced sexism from men in professional negotiations. Can she call that sexism? Is there a distinction in how we perceive her experience and views compared with Monroe Bergdorf? I realise my views are for me to define but I want to be informed when I do that so I ask these questions with open minded curiosity. Thank you!

Are there very many transwomen in prison?
There are at least 125 transgender prisoners, mostly trans women. Around half are sex offenders. This is a tiny amount compared to the number of male sex offenders (I think there is around 3800) but a significant number if they were moved into women's prison (around 130 female sex offenders in prison)

So yes, small numbers but will cause a problem if they are moved to the female estate by increasing the number of sex offenders there, that female prisons are not set up to deal with. That's before you even get into the potential ethics of mixing penises and vaginas in prison, inmates getting pregnant or even sexually assaulted.

Otherwise i pretty much agree with sid

What's most relevant and alarming about the above statistic is that nowhere near half of male prisoners in general are sex offenders (I think it's about 13%), so you have to ask yourself why the percentage is so high among trans women in prison.

I believe that the answer is "autogynephilia", which continues to exist no matter how much Lunar tries to deny it.

rufus I considered and responded to Barrack’s post at 15:54, the reference to PMT came later. I’m grateful for Barracks response though disagree, but that has helped crystallise my thinking, which was the aim of my thread. I’m not goading anyone here, just trying to learn from the views and experience of others

We must recognise the sociopathic nature of this behaviour. People without empathy will take us to their limits without us knowing we are going there.

And yes, most people recognize the boundaries set by others and are willing to respect those boundaries. People who do not are inherently a danger to others.

I think old skool trans women never want to do other than fly under the radar. As with the majority, they just want to be left to be and crack on enjoying the life they built. I know my friend cannot relate to the current trans movement

You friend's life story has been hijacked by a variety of unpleasant people for political purposes. I think that all old school transsexuals who object to what's being done in their name should speak out now, before it's too late.

Chartreuseveil

I'm sure you're right. We have several of them posting on this board. And they say exactly the same.

They don't support self ID, they just want to get on with it. They know they are men, they don't take massive issue with women over that. But as much as they would like their preferred pronouns (and generally get them). They also think men beating women in sport is ridiculous, as is going to female prisons, and taking women's posts in public office.

They are not interested in taking women's 'rights'. Or redefining the meaning of the word sex, lesbian, and woman.

And I, and almost every other woman here, totally understands the difference between them and these new Johnny Come Latelys.

The reference to sealioning ALunerExplorer is the habit people have of asking questions for which they have already been provided the answers.

It's a sort of time wasting/derailing tactic.

You've been on these boards frequently and know full well that all the women on here understand autogynephilia.

Many of them, only too well, since they are married to men who have it.

But, since you bring it up and for the benefit of the OP, and any lurkers, I will provide a link to a thread set up specifically for and by such women.

Why don't you go on there and tell them it's made up bollocks theory by Ray Blanchard?

Although, I would hope, that even you, wouldn't be quite so cruel.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Datin thank you for the link.

I know my friend knows what she is and would never want to compete against women in sport and potentially put herself as a man.

Also could you or another poste explain or link me into a resource that explains the trans attempt to redefine lesbianism? My mind isn’t quick enough to break that down without explanation. Thank you

I know my friend cannot relate to the current trans movement

Is your friend speaking out? Why not?

Why would she cunning? Why would she now expose herself to being called he and being refused access to women’s toilets? Her battle was hers, no anyone else’s

Chartreuseveil

You can divide transwomen into two cohorts. Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles.

Your friend sounds like the first cohort. Attracted to men, probably transitioned quite young, fairly effeminate, likely to have had surgery, and probably passes quite well.

What we would call old school transsexuals.

The second cohort are men with AGP. Or a transvestite fetish, in old money.

They are officially included under the trans umbrella, according to Stonewalls own website.

They are generally late transitioning, after decades of secret cross dressing, attracted to women, will often have feminising surgery, but, crucially, keep their penis.

It would appear, that they are often successful in IT (almost all the husbands on that thread are), or a macho profession like the military, and have often been married and fathered children.

The compulsion takes the form of being aroused at the thought of themselves as a woman. It's a strong compulsion, often progressive and fuelled by porn.

Their dating pool is almost non-existent. They rarely date each other, for instance. Because they're not gay.

They're only attracted to women, but straight women don't cut the mustard, because straight women don't sleep with 'women'. It doesn't validate their identity, for arousal purposes.

So the only cohort left is lesbians.

It means they get to sleep with women, but have their validation as a woman provided at the same time.

Lesbians are relentlessly persecuted and targeted for sex.

See cotton ceiling.

Here is a thread about a group of powerful middle-aged men who have AGP, calling lesbians hostile and campaigning to make them available for sex.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3181703-TIM-rights-to-sex-with-lesbians

Here is another thread, about all the acronyms that can drive you crazy and a breakdown of terms, if you're not familiar with them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

The more people who understand the layers to this, the better. Simply saying transwomen are men, sometimes seems to people like a knee-jerk, unnecessary reaction.

So it's useful to explain how we get to that statement, which feels unkind at first, but entirely understandable when you see quite how and why it's been arrived at.

This blog post might help you understand how things have changed, OP:

ommadusk.tumblr.com/post/96367035207/who-are-the-trans-community

As a person who hung out a lot on the London gay scene during the 80s and early 90s, I found the same. Two distinct populations have now merged into one population (whilst also adding anyone with blue hair or whatever non-binary actually means).

The population of people like your friend (and a friend of mine) is very small. The population added in - the cross dressers - is much, much bigger. That is why you are now seeing a lot of women objecting. Nobody wants a bunch of boundary-disrespecting, disordered males colonising their spaces. The odd transsexual every once in a while? No big deal.

I want to add, that as an ideology, it is highly aligned with men's sexual rights activism.

As a result, it's a misogyny magnet.

So people who aren't even trans are drawn to it - men's rights activists, misogynists, and intimidating, bullying men in general.

Given that you don't need to make even the smallest modification to your appearance, including your clothes, (or have gender dysphoria), to claim you are transwoman, it's a bit of a gift for certain men.

datun and lang thank you so much. Reading with interest.

I was another one who hung out in spaces where there were transsexual, as well as a bunch of other gender non conforming people, around back in the day. No big deal, was fine with that. The AGP guys? Oh hell no.

What about trans men? How are they viewed by women?

Transmen are women. So their rights are women's rights.

All of them.

However transmen are still a feminist issue.

They transition for different reasons to men. It's almost never sexual reasons.

Stephanie Davis Arai of transgendertrend who is concerned with the transitioning of children, has said she is yet to see a girl transition who is not doing it either because of past sexual trauma, or they are lesbian, or they are autistic.

Autism is over represented in the trans-community. The theory being that people who are autistic don't recognise gender signals. And therefore are quite likely to display behaviour of the opposite sex and therefore, sometimes, trans seems to be the answer they are looking for.

Sexual trauma I don't think is difficult to understand. Young girls denying their sexuality and womanhood, in a bid to escape objectification, harassment and assault. A sort of Teflon coating.

And lesbians are often gender nonconforming. Butch lesbians come under a great deal of peer pressure to identify as men. (There is a thread around here somewhere highlighting claims that all lesbians are transmen in denial).

Chartreuseveil

datun and lang thank you so much. Reading with interest

Glad to help. Although, be aware, the more you read, the more you drink.

The absence of ovaries is irrelevant day to day.

Are you young? Not goady but I have realised over the years how very relevant my biology is.

Having a vagina makes me a rape target. And sexual harassment and that fun stuff.

Having a womb means that consciously or subconsciously my reproductive choices influence pay.

Having female biology results in any anger or upset being interpreted as hormones or hysteria.

My body is subject to the whims of male lawmakers.

I think you'll find that some feminists reject post-op transsexuals in women's spaces in any circumstances

That would be me. If it was up to me I would completely scrap the gender recognition act. The tim in the op is simply a gay man . More than that he is a gay man who has gaslighted women into pretending he's a woman and has also intruded into women's spaces. I strongly disagree that these transexuals care about women's rights and I think it's foolish to believe that they will object to the very laws that have benefited them.

I find it frustrating that within these discussions about sex and women's spaces so many people are willing to accept a gay man into their space without question. Why is this? Why are they described as harmless and genuine? How on earth can a man who lies to himself and others be considered genuine?

We nearly all agree that spaces should be segregated by sex, not gender. Why then do we afford the gay man the right to be there wearing his woman costume? Why aren't we offended by that costume and the belief that liking men means he's a woman?

The only explanation that I can think of for this is that we do not consider that gay man is a real man. And if he's not a real man ,well, then he must be a type of woman ,so he's welcome and can come in. It's an uncomfortable thought but perhaps one we should address.

By accepting that gay man in our spaces we are segregating by sexuality and sterotypes. Isn't that what tra's are doing and what we object to? I don't think we will get anywhere while we accept one man and not the other.

Either we are segregating by sex or we are not. A gay man is still a biological male.

butterfly I’m 47. I agree theoretically all the things you say are correct but I don’t see my day to day life through that lens. I may have been lucky in my life experiences or I may be thick skinned.

terfinater would you have felt that way 10 years ago or is this a more recent evolution of thinking as a reaction to what is happening?Interestingly I delivered country wide training on the 2010 Equality Act when it was enacted and there were many open debates and discussions around the pc’s and what people thought was fair/unfair - people didn’t hold back and it was exhausting and often unedifying but not one attendee expressed any objection to protections afforded to transsexuals.

You can divide transwomen into two cohorts. Homosexual transsexuals (HSTS) and autogynephiles

I know this comes from a respected official source, but I really really would add
and teenagers who are jumping onto the Trans Train because right now it's the coolest thing ever

And MRAs who've realized that as long as they call themselves trans they can do whatever they want to women and be cheered on for it.

Thanks for the stats Quentin.

Butterfly I completely agree that having female biology changes how one lives one's life, but in your examples it mostly isn't the having female biology that matters, it's the appearing to have it. That's what affects how other people treat you.

The OP says her friend has experienced "sexism" at work, which I quite believe, if indeed she does look like she has female biology. You don't need to have a functioning reproductive system to be passed over for promotion because someone thinks you'll have babies. And you don't need to have a god-given vagina to be a rape target.