Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

Women's bodies dispose of potential babies every time they menstruate. While people are clusters of cells it does not follow that clusters of cells are people.

Are people really saying that to be feminists women have to actively support abortion on demand up to the moment of natural birth? Is being comfortable with the status quo in England, Wales and Scotland and wanting it extended to Northern Ireland (and other countries) not good enough?

Bertrand:

Comres poll 2017:

ComRes interviewed 2,008 British adults online between 12th and 14th May 2017. Data was weighted to be representative of all GB adults.

· Only 1pc want the abortion time limit raised to birth
· 70pc of women would like the current time limit for abortion to be lowered.
· 59pc of women would like the abortion time limit lowered to 16 weeks or lower.
· 65pc oppose UK taxpayer money being spent on abortions overseas.
· 93pc of women want independent abortion counselling introduced.
· 91pc of women want a sex-selective abortion ban.
· 79pc of general population want a five-day consideration period before abortion.
· 84pc of women want improved pregnancy support for women in crisis.
· 76pc of population want introduction of doctors verifying women not coerced.
· 70pc of parents want introduction of parental consent for girls 15 and under to get abortions.

Yougov 2013 poll puts it slightly higher at 4% amongst women, but still only 1/25

Leaving aside medical emergencies, which of
these options do you favour?
Increasing the time limit to above 24 weeks 6 6 6 5 6 6 5 7 4 9 6 5 5 7 4 8 5 5 7 3 4 4 5 6 6
Keeping the time limit at 24 weeks 40 42 42 48 40 42 47 42 38 46 37 40 41 43 37 41 40 40 39 44 34 39 39 48 38
Reducing the time limit to below 24 weeks 28 30 28 26 32 26 27 19 37 22 28 30 29 28 28 22 31 29 27 28 28 34 31 26 28
Banning abortions altogether 7 5 7 4 6 7 5 7 6 6 7 7 7 5 9 8 5 7 8 9 9 6 6 5 9
Don't know 19 17 17 17 17 19 16 24 14 17 22 19 17 17 22 21 19 19 19 16 25 17 20 14 19

That did not come out very well but easy to google

This is the yougov poll

cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/a0c0uf8c2g/YouGov-Survey-University-of-Lancaster-Results-130130.pdf

“It is incredibly hard to justify without the most amazingly contorted leaps of (false) logic why a baby born at 30 weeks should not be able to be taken off life support if the mother so chooses, and yet a foetus of 36 weeks gestation should be able to be 'aborted' by an injection of potassium chloride into its heart.”

It’s not hard at all. It’s very simple. The baby is either inside its mother’s body or it isn’t. Once born, a baby is still dependent, but literally anyone can look after it. A fœtus (or baby, if you insist) that has not yet been born is dependent on its mother and no one else.

Wiseup, I'd wonder then if the option to end a pregnancy - but not to abort the foetus - would be okay? That would be, I think, my ideal way of getting around it.

And I would offer all women the option to not have to birth their baby, whether abortion, induction or regular birth. In an ideal situation.

"I don't care what 99% of women think about my body, the only opinion that matters is mine"

THIS

Of course you can be pro life and a feminist.

I'm pro life, except when that life is affecting mine adversely.

Like cockroaches, for example. I'm not in favour of cockroaches and their lives.

Or rats.

What you can't be, is in favour of allowing a largely man-made criminal jurisidiction forcing women to carry pregnancies and give birth to children against their will.

You can not like the idea of abortion. You can be anti abortion. You can be pro birth. But you cannot be anti legal, safe abortion and pro forced birth IMO.

If you don't believe that women are sovereign over their own bodies, just like men are, your feminism is like Tony Blair's socialism IMO.

When you say pro forced birth basil, do you include those of us who don't want the 24 week limit increased?

Both sides use emotive language and I'm glad they do. It underscores the gravity and enormity of the dillema. The only argument I abhor is trying to deny the other side of the debate their use of accurate facts. Yes it's forced birth, yes it's killing an unborn child/ foetus.

Unless the goal of feminism is to produce female "clones" of uniform and identical opinion then yes I think feminists can be pro-life. Otherwise you are denying women the right to the full spectrum of philosophical thought and opinion at which point the whole point of feminism self detonates if the point of feminism is liberation. If women aren't free to think as they choose on matters of ethics and politics we've sort of pratfalled at the first hurdle.

For clarities sake I am pro-life (in that is always the sovereign principle that guides my thinking), but I am very much swayed by the argument that if you make abortion illegal you then lose the mother and the child/foetus thanks to illegal abortions. I'd even support abortions up to term if the data showed that's where the greatest number of lives saved were.

The only argument I abhor is trying to deny the other side of the debate their use of accurate facts. Yes it's forced birth, yes it's killing an unborn child/ foetus

Big problem with your accurate facts: they aren't accurate or facts. Can you kill something that is not alive? Killing means the act of causing death, and I for one would argue that something that was never born was never alive in the first place.

Unless the goal of feminism is to produce female "clones" of uniform and identical opinion then yes I think feminists can be pro-life. Otherwise you are denying women the right to the full spectrum of philosophical thought and opinion at which point the whole point of feminism self detonates if the point of feminism is liberation. If women aren't free to think as they choose on matters of ethics and politics we've sort of pratfalled at the first hurdle

They can be PERSONALLY prolife and be a feminist, in that if they agree their choice is only relevant to themselves and not anyone else. I'm not denying anyone their philosophical thought, but if they are seeking to deny my right to bodily autonomy, which one is more important?

What is life/alive?

well exactly.

Anti choice isn't compatible with feminism.
It's akin to being anti-slavery, except a little bit when it suits.

Either every human gets full autonomy over their body from birth to death, or men do and women don't. You endorse a second class 'slave' status, in law, to women. Whereby for periods of their lives their bodies, their organs, are literally owned by another person and by a state, and they are not free to pursue their own health choices.

It's also compelled health risk and danger which by necessity punishes women who choose to control their own bodies.

To any self-proclaimed 'feminist' who is anti choice, I would ask this:
What legal punishment to you endorse for women who defy their enforced bodily slavery and end their own pregnancies?

IF you believe in the state punishing women who OWN themselves and their bodies, WHAT punishment do you support, and WHO gets to decide upon that punishment?

@DevilsAdvocate123 said LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett You just dismissed it without providing reasoning.

I've been on this thread all day and provided reasoning all the way through, as have others. But I have a fairly short supply of patience for faux naive goaderyfuckery, tbh.

Sorry coming late to this thread, so haven’t read all comments.

I am anti-abortion - I know most people say “pro-life” but I am against abortion and don’t have a problem with that terminology.

For that reason, although I am in sympathy of 90 % of what I read on this board, I don’t call myself a feminist. Mostly because I feel it would be dishonest, somehow - feminists would assume I was with them on the abortion issue, when I’m not. Also, my friends who are against abortion would be confused and upset as they would think I was expressing support for abortion.

Mostly it doesn’t bother me (not being able to call myself a feminist); to me, it’s just another label, and labelling to me is part of the reason politics has become so polarised; people often allow the label they wear to dictate their views, and are signed up to a prescribed set of positions without necessarily having thought them through. Not wearing a label means I am free to believe what I want.

What I believe is that my child was as much my child and as much himself the minute before I gave birth to him as he was after. He was my child and he was himself, with his own unique DNA, in the womb, before 24 weeks - even at that stage he had a name, the name he still has today. How can a being with a heartbeat not be alive? He was alive and he was my son. Nobody will ever make me believe that he was “something” as opposed to “someone.”

So I don’t mind not being a feminist - I will support feminist causes with which I agree (if they want my support - maybe they don’t and I’m completely beyond the pale; I don’t know). But on this, I can’t.

Sometimes it makes me frustrated though; in the US the original women’s liberation movement had nothing to say about abortion; the campaign for abortion was driven by MEN who worked hard to get Betty Friedan and her supporters on board. They convinced her, but there were women who were involved from the start who didn’t capitulate and were appalled at the new focus on abortion - are they not feminists either, even if they were fighting for women’s rights before most of us were born? I think it’s interesting that men played such a huge role then, and in my opinion today the people who benefit most from abortion are still men.

But I digress; when it comes down to it, I can live without being considered a feminist and I wouldn’t sell out my beliefs just to be accepted by a group.

Interesting varvara. I was very struck by this comment:
“in my opinion today the people who benefit most from abortion are still men.”
Please could you explain this a bit more? I completely disagree and I’m curious about the reasoning behind it.
In my opinion a woman forced to continue a pregnancy against her will is the person most affected by it, and on the other side of the coin is most affected by the right to an abortion if she chooses to have one.
Surely women benefit from having control over whether or not to carry their pregnancies to term?!
Men can control women by allowing or withholding abortion. But it doesn’t affect their bodies, or even their lives, if they choose (as fathers) to walk away.

Barmer, I'm pro the current 24 week limit. I don't agree with criminalising the women who terminate their pregnancies after that date or punishment by the state. Have any women been prosecuted for terminating their own pregnancy beyond that limit? I don't remember ever hearing of any, but I'd be happy to campaign against that.

I accept that my status quo solution does limit the bodily autonomy of some women. But then, so does my anti legalisation of prostitution stance, where I again don't believe in prosecution or punishment of the women involved.

varvara
We're fighting to change our constitution in Ireland at the moment #repealthe8th
Your opinion is what I've been reading from others who are anti abortion
I'm always baffled when the " it benefits men" argument is used 🤔

Also want to thank the few posters on this thread who are standing beside us in solidarity #repealthe8th Ireland 🇮🇪 💪

No, I don't think that an anti-choice position is generally compatible with feminism. The arguments from bodily autonomy have been done already (and I agree with them).

There's also the fact that the most basic tenet of feminism is to put women first. Feminists understand that it matters not one jot if abortion is legal or illegal, because a woman who wants an abortion will do her level best to find one. And world wide, 45,000 women a year die trying to do that, in countries where they can't access safe, legal abortion. So anyone who seeks to prevent women accessing abortion, you're not "saving babies", you're just killing women. And their foetuses go with them. It's not much of a result. And it also can't possibly be feminist.

Saying you are a pro life feminist is like saying you're a vegetarian who eats bacon. . You've missed a basic point. You can say you're vegetarian till you're blue in the face, but your acts aren't compatible with what you're saying.

I know women who have massive reservations about abortion, and would never have one themselves, who are also ardent feminists. But they keep their opinions to themselves, and they have been front and centre with me at pro choice events. They're still doing feminism.

Women's bodies dispose of potential babies every time they menstruate. While people are clusters of cells it does not follow that clusters of cells are people.

The average man ends millions of potential lives every single day...

I cant be the only one thinking of the 'Every Sperm is Sacred' Monty Python song/sketch when they read that BrendasUmbrella

@OkPedro with you 100% sister. Please feel free to PM if there's anything direct I can do from Scotland.

I’ve had that song stuck in my head reading this thread all day