Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

Wow, those advocating that a woman should be able to kill an unborn baby at 39 weeks because she would rather it didn't "walk the earth" are really helping me to move towards a more pro-life position. Really chilling stuff

I am not changing from where I started but that presumably makes me a "pro-lifer" or a "forced birther".

From there we've once again arrived at the point where pro-lifers are insisting that hordes of women are chomping at the bit just waiting for the opportunity to abort what was clearly a wanted pregnancy

No one is suggesting there are "hordes of women etc". You are the ones promoting an extreme position.The logical outcome of your extreme position is being pointed out.

kittens I haven't seen anyone suggest that it would be common practice to have very late term abortions. Earlier you said it was possible to have a discussion about where the legal limits should be, but you don't want to discuss those limits. Saying "that wouldn't happen" doesn't answer the question, it dodges the question.

So we should allow late abortions, because women don't want late abortions anyway?!!
I can pretty much guarantee that if the period when an abortion is automatically allowed is moved to "anytime", there will be more late abortions.

I can't believe anyone thinks it's fine to have abortion at full term.
Or even post viabilty frankly
In Ireland a woman died a couple years ago because the doctors agreed with you. Srsly! They let her die rather than abort post viability despite the fact that the fetus was dead. Savita Halappanavar. Say her name.

Children are not the chattels of their parents, in the same way that women are not the chattels of their husbands anymore. Unborn children should not be yours to kill at whim, they are small humans who want to live just as much as you and I do.

Yes it's a possible logical outcome. It is extremely unlikely to actually occur, to the point that it may never actually be requested.

She still has to undergo a birth anyway, so that’s irrelevant isn’t it?

Depends on the procedure used. If they use a dilation and evacuation, the foetus can be be removed in pieces via surgical instruments.

It's possible to discuss where the legal limit should be set in terms of how many weeks and what's an achievable goal in that sense without all of the above attempts at emotional manipulation

But we aren't having that discussion. Anyone not agreeing with abortion to term is "pro-life"/" a forced birther".

I have said from the outset I support 24 weeks, the removal of the 2 doctor rule and the retention of no limit in exceptional circumstances. If that mainstream to liberal stance makes me a "forced birther" heaven help you changing the minds of anti abortion supporters.

You can't live in a vacuum where male opinion has no influence.

You're telling us, mate.

I haven't promoted any position so far in this thread, Lass, other than that being dedicated to lecturing other women about how evil abortion is using highly emotive guilt-tripping language isn't feminist. My personal position would be abortion on demand up till the point of viability, which is already well past the point where most abortions actually happen, and later term abortions for specific medical reasons (which is pretty much the only scenario in which they actually happen) allowed and not shamed with the kind of "oh she just wanted to go on holiday" nonsense that's been happening in this thread.

Late term abortions are not something that women have for shits and giggles, or because they just don't want a baby. There's pretty much always a medical reason.

A couple of blog posts which more or less sum up my feelings on abortion:

Only 9 months

I'm a civilian, not a ship's captain

In Ireland a woman died a couple years ago because the doctors agreed with you. Srsly! They let her die rather than abort post viability despite the fact that the fetus was dead. Savita Halappanavar. Say her name

Do you seriously think anyone on here supported that? Had she been in the mainland UK it would not have happened.

So we should allow late abortions, because women don't want late abortions anyway?!! I can pretty much guarantee that if the period when an abortion is automatically allowed is moved to "anytime", there will be more late abortions.

It's interesting that you believe that. Why? Why do you think that a woman who wants an abortion would wait until, say, 32 weeks, rather than having her abortion within the first 13 weeks like most women do?

My personal position would be abortion on demand up till the point of viability, which is already well past the point where most abortions actually happen, and later term abortions for specific medical reasons

As is mine but that, according to some on here, makes me a forced birther.

kittens, emotive language isn't just being used by the anti-abortion people here. According to some posters, unless you agree with abortion on demand for any reason whatsoever then you are a "forced birther" and cannot be a feminist.

I'd also be fine with abortion on demand, period, because I trust women to generally make the best choice available in their specific circumstances. It's the very obvious lack of that trust and the ugly assumptions that are being made about other women's motivations and behavior that are on display in this thread that actually need examining, and that I'm calling out as being very clearly un-feminist.

Canada doesn't have a time limit on abortion but they don't have a huge number of women having abortions at a very late stage so I'm not at all convinced that removing the legal time limit would actually significantly increase the number of late term abortions. But "it wouldn't happen anyway" seems like a daft reason to change the law.

That's the thing though, there's no evidence to support the idea that if there was no time limit lots of women would wait until very late in their pregnancy to seek an abortion, and no logical reason why they should do so. When an abortion happens late it's usually a wanted pregnancy where something has gone horribly wrong, or because the mother has become ill in a way that makes continuing with the pregnancy dangerous to her.

The majority of abortions are carried out within 8 weeks
38% of them were women who'd had a previous abortion
2% were due to serious abnormalities
About 200 abortions (0.1%) took place after 24 weeks.

Canada doesn't have a time limit on abortion but they don't have a huge number of women having abortions at a very late stage

On a previous thread where this was discussed the point was made that Canadian women were crossing the US border to have late abortions as Canadian doctors were not performing them. I think that "late" was not late by UK limits.

Seriously, do some research on late term abortions and you'll find that those are the ones that usually are tragic, and not at all something that's happening because the mother wanted to go on holiday.

(Jaw still dropped at the sheer absurd misogyny of that idea.)

(Last comment aimed not at Lass so much as at the people who seem convinced that abortions past week 30 are something women do for fun or convenience.)

I personally feel you can't say you are a feminist and in the next breath say a woman's life is equal to an embryo/foetus..
That opinion really shocks me

I have many friends who would never have an abortion themselves, I have two sisters that feel the same but never would they judge anyone else's life

I've been teaching my dc about empathy recently.. it should be compulsory in schools IMO

Just for clarification - are the anti-abortion feminists on this thread saying that I, personally, shouldn't be able to have an abortion?

My question is - they're not just saying they think it's wrong and they wouldn't have one. But they would also want to prevent me and other women from having one?

It's hard to believe many women would wait longer before termination, but I think that's partly because there's plenty of education on the subject now, and an awful lot of publicity around the 24 week viability figure. Rightly or wrongly, I think a lot of young women DO see 24 weeks as a 'real person' and have no wish to let a foetus reach that stage. If conventional wisdom said that viability was at 34 weeks, then maybe more women would wait longer, but it's only heading in one direction right now.
Once people can visualise a small baby, everything becomes a whole load more emotional and moral and the evidence is pretty compelling that neither pro-life or pro-choice are particularly comfortable with that visualisation aspect.