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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

742 replies

DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 03:34

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

OP posts:
Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 16:29

Upstartcrow
I think euthanasia is very dangerous- I'm coutries where it's legal some have seen a massive increase in dementia patients being euthanised. They can't even consent!
What about people pressured into it because they feel a burden, because relatives encourage them to.
People say that you should have the right to die with dignity-
Well the words dignity and euthanasia shouldn't be conflated- it pressures people into thinking that they are undiginfied if they choose to die a natural death.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2018 16:29

“would say that the issues feminism is concerned with are so broad that not everyone could possible be universally agreed and have same opinion on all issues- doesn't make them less feminist.”

But not believing that women should be front and centre is a bit like saying you don’t have to believe in God to be a Christian. Some things are fundamental.

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 16:32

you can put women front and centre without conceding that human life is extinguishable

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/02/2018 16:32

No. You are ascribing fully human status to a ball of cells, or a developing embryo, or an unborn baby. I am not. Living doesn't equal being a full human being. Every single part of your body is alive, living. That doesn't mean that one part of my body is independently given full human rights. If I need a lung removed due to cancer no one tells me that I can't do this because my lung will die as a result.

The question for you is on what basis do you give an embryo full human rights, which are in fact more important than the human rights of the woman whose body is sustaining it? And why does your belief about that mean that you think you should be able to control other women's bodies?

splendide · 28/02/2018 16:33

'in coutries where it's legal some have seen a massive increase in dementia patients being euthanised. They can't even consent!

Which countries?

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2018 16:33

“you can put women front and centre without conceding that human life is extinguishable”

Not if you’re forcing her to give birth you can’t.....

Clarissalarissa · 28/02/2018 16:37

You can believe that the life of the woman is more important that the life of the foetus, without believing that the woman's right not to miss a pre-booked holiday is more important than the life of the foetus.

UpstartCrow · 28/02/2018 16:37

In the Netherlands, there was an increase from 25 to 100 patients over 5 years.

With elective euthanasia you make a living will while you are compos mentis. Most people don't want to be kept alive when they have dementia.

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/02/2018 16:40

@Clarissalarissa what do you mean about missing a holiday?

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 16:40

That returns us to square one of where does life begin and the "what is life?" debate.
As I said you don't have autonomy it's a myth
You can't consent to having grevious bodily harm inflicated on yourself by law
You can't in this country have euthanasia
You can't demand a medical procedure, i.e. to have an organ removed because you want to
You don't have autonomy, now do you think these safeguards should be removed.... if not why? And who are you to say I can't do what I please with my body- Maybe I should demand the NHS remove a kidney for no reason, maybe I should be able to get my sexual kicks from having a limb amptutated without prosecution.... it's my right to do as I please- except not all rights are good for me or society as a whole.
Yes you have autonomy to a degree but the line should be draw when it causes harm to you or others.

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2018 16:43

“You can believe that the life of the woman is more important that the life of the foetus, without believing that the woman's right not to miss a pre-booked holiday is more important than the life of the foetus“

Do you think that’s why women have abortions?

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/02/2018 16:46

But I don't believe that having an abortion is causing harm to me or another human being. You do believe that. Why does your belief mean that you get to impose your will on other women and you get to control what they do?

Clarissalarissa · 28/02/2018 16:51

Just that people are arguing that women should have the absolute right to abort at any stage, however spurious the reason. Eg the due date of birth being inconvenient.
Do people really believe that a baby due to be born soon is not a human being?

UpstartCrow · 28/02/2018 16:52

I couldn't force a child to carry a fetus full term. Especially not if the argument is its in the best interests of the fetus.

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 16:53

Assassinated-
Do you believe that parents should be able to give their children hormone blockers at age 8?
It's not affecting you, why should your will be put on them, they believe it's not harmful, who are you to say other wise. Why should you impose your will?
Because you think it's harmful and you feel others who can't protect themselves are deserving of protection... much same as me on this issue.
If everyone can exercise their "rights", doesn't always have a good result and as a member of society I have a right to speak out when I think something isn't right.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 28/02/2018 16:55

My opinion is that right to life is the ultimate right that is above all others.

And that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to act accordingly in your own life.

But believing that the right to life for an unborn embryo trumps a woman's right to end its pregnancy is deeply unfeminist.

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 16:59

And that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to act accordingly in your own life.

Ah well on that basis there can be no rights on most things, as I said do you think the law should be changed to enable me to have my sexual kicks by allowing a partner to cut off my body parts so long as I consent- no, why not?
If you say each to their own to behave and do as they please, there is no basis to law or order

Clarissalarissa · 28/02/2018 17:00

I can cope with the right to have an abortion prior to the viability of the foetus. Though in the absence of extreme circumstances I don't think I would feel able to abort myself. But a right to abort for any reason up to the actual birth? So killing the baby one day before its due birth is totally fine, it's not a human being, whereas killing it as soon as it is born is murder?

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2018 17:00

Obviously anyone can believe what they want for thrmselves A I said, I would only have an abortion in very limited circumstances myself. But I do not have the right to make that choice for anyone else,

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 17:00

Why can't I have my genitals mutilated if I want as a consenting adult in this country- should we remove law on fgm for consenting adult females in name of bodily autonomy?

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 17:03

Betrand-
So do you think fgm law should be revoked for consenting adult females?
if you say the individual rights of a person are so great that they must have autonomy, you need to remove laws there to protect people

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/02/2018 17:03

"Do you believe that parents should be able to give their children hormone blockers at age 8?" - I'm presuming you mean in order to halt puberty because the child identifies as transgender, rather than for medical reasons such as early onset of puberty?

Well, an 8 year old child has human rights and should be protected from harm. That's not my individual will, that's society agreeing that human rights apply to children from birth. Which I happen to agree with. I wouldn't agree with parents giving an 8 year old child heroin, or cocaine for example.

if you believe that human rights should apply to embryos from the moment of conception, it is up to you to give reasons why that can't be argued with in order to persuade society to agree with you. Just stating your belief isnt really sufficient.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 28/02/2018 17:05

Where did the idea of the woman having an abortion because the baby clashed with a holiday come from? Confused

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 17:06

Clarissa-
I agree but people move the goal posts between bodily autonomy and the "unborn are not really alive", therefore have no rights, argument.

Clarissalarissa · 28/02/2018 17:07

So presumably it's ok in a country where most people favour boys, to find out what you're having, and abort if it's a girl?