Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

742 replies

DevilsAdvocate123 · 27/02/2018 03:34

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

OP posts:
splendide · 28/02/2018 09:32

The logical conclusion I wouĺd come to following that line is that I would be opposed to abortion. The illogical position which I can tolerate emotionally is the UK position with a bit of relaxation.

I think this is me, too. I’ve never really thought about it in this way. The idea of it being a position one can tolerate emotionally. I think of myself as pro-choice and wouldn’t agree with any limit reduction.

LineysHorseWithNoName · 28/02/2018 09:37

I see you, Leilaniii.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 28/02/2018 09:45

Lass

I agree with you. 'Illogical prgamatism' is the best answer to a problem with no good solution.

I also think the 24 weeks date should be lowered as the viability of life date becomes earlier. Where this leads us in the future is one to ponder

LassWiADelicateAir · 28/02/2018 09:50

On the subject upthread of periods, I haven't had one since I had my Mirena coil fitted. I have two friends in my relatively small circle who got pregnant when they had mirenas in

Up to you but that is rather the point I was making. You don't want to get pregnant, are using a method which might fail but gives you no indication if it has failed. If it were me, knowing all of that, I wouldn't rely on assuming it will be fine when I could easily check at very little cost that all was fine.

AngryAttackKittens · 28/02/2018 09:55

I had no idea that the Mirena failed so often, and suspect some other women didn't either, so thanks to those who mentioned it.

alpineibex · 28/02/2018 10:03

I'm on the implant, was thinking about switching to Mirena... Maybe not now!!

BeyondDeadlySiren · 28/02/2018 10:06

Ah I don't test, but then my DH is vasectomised and I'm on abortifacient medication, so it would take one determined embryo to get through all of that!
I don't think it does fail that often (iirc the stats are better for mirena than for tubal ligation), I don't think my small group is representative. Just pointing out that is does happen, even if it's rare.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 28/02/2018 10:10

I agree with Lass - illogical pragmatism.

Your posts have been great on this thread.

splendide · 28/02/2018 10:11

Mirena is over 99% effective according to the NHS.

MrsOvarall · 28/02/2018 10:20

Illogical pragmatism describes exactly how I feel about abortion before viability. Thank you. I do believe that it is the ending of an actual human life. But I'm also pro choice. It's uncomfortable.

Induction on demand after viability, or CS under general anesthesia, would be consistent with a pro choice stance IMO.

There's undoubtedly logic in supporting abortion to term. But my personal illogical pragmatism doesn't stretch as far as terminating an independently viable foetus.

doesthislookoddtoyou · 28/02/2018 10:27

Spare a thought today for the women and girls in Ireland having their flights cancelled because of the snow and all their hard made arrangements wrecked #repealthe8th

BertrandRussell · 28/02/2018 10:49

Are loads of expats going to fly home for the #repealthe8th referendum, do you think?

squarecorners · 28/02/2018 10:56

I don't use the term feminist (because of associations with the radical left wing) but I am pro life. I think abortion should be safe and legal, but crucially rare. I think our law as it stands is correct, but that someone needs to crack down on organisations like Marie Stopes and BPAS taking the piss and having doctors who have never met the woman concerned signing stacks of forms. I am fundamentally opposed to disabled children being aborted for social reasons, and I believe that adoption has actually become more stigmatised in our society than abortion. I think women should have access to a full range of options and truly impartial advice. I do practice what I preach- until recently I worked for a charity that provided practical help to women with unplanned or crisis pregnancies, and I don't think I would personally judge someone who has had an abortion.
My concerns in terms of women's rights are that making abortion easier is handing a golden ticket to men who don't want to take responsibility. I know a man who more or less forced an ex to have an abortion, and nobody stopped him. I also have concerns about socially aborting female babies because they are seen by some communities as less valuable. It might be rare but it happens and it's unacceptable.
I would like to see the abortion limit changed from 24 to 20 weeks. In 1967 we did not have the technology to detect pregnancies in early weeks, now you can easily buy a pregnancy test in a pound shop, we have emergency contraception available over the counter and even for free in sexual health clinics. We also have more medical advances that mean that babies are viable far earlier than when the abortion act came in.
I honestly do think we should treat women with unplanned pregnancies with compassion and kindness, I just have concerns about abortion on demand and feel it could be abused.

Yellowshadeofgreen · 28/02/2018 13:41

I worked in gynaecology years ago

Really?? Leila

There are almost no obstetricians who are completely anti abortion, obstetricians have to carry out abortions to save women’s lives regularly so they are literally at the coalface of facing up to the grey area that is abortion is actually sometimes a necessity and sometimes you have to make the call that it is necessary when maybe it actually might not have been.

They could not find one obstetrician to willingly come and speak before a government committee in Ireland to defend the 8th amendment because the vast, vast majority believe the 8th amendment compromises them doing their job properly.

Yellowshadeofgreen · 28/02/2018 13:43

Are loads of expats going to fly home for the #repealthe8th referendum, do you think?

I really hope so. I got one have not booked a holiday away this summer because I want to be absolutely certain I am here for the vote.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 28/02/2018 13:51

square feminists believe abortion should be a free choice. That not only means that it should be a freely available and safe option, but that that no-one should be able to force or pressure a woman into having one.

When you read stories about women who regret an abortion, if you scratch the surface you'll usually find a woman who felt forced into it. where it was a truly free choice, women don't tend to regret it (in my anecdatal experience).

squarecorners · 28/02/2018 14:03

Lonny I don't think I'm disagreeing with you. I think if you base your points around compassion and protecting women that there will absolutely be women for whom an abortion was the right choice. I don't want to actively prevent women from having abortions but I think there are risks if we normalise abortion as opposed to framing it as a serious option of absolute last resort as I believe it ought to be. I have seen some "mystery shopping" results of pregnancy "advice" and it seems to be very much biased in favour of abortion, minimalising the risks and other options. I fully accept abortion can be the only choice and in some cases a good choice but underneath what can be a good choice without regret, it is 100% of the time a tragedy. Nobody ends a pregnancy for fun and games.

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/02/2018 14:09

What do you mean by 100% of the time it is a tragedy?

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 14:23

Square-
I agree with you here, it should be safe, legal but crucially- rare.
The rare bit has completely gone, it's really common and increasing.
I don't like the way it is used to discriminate against disabled unborn babies that can be aborted up to birth. Conditions like Down syndrome are virtually disappearing in countries like Iceland. Why bother protecting disabled people who are born when they can be eradicated prior to birth.
I don't think anyone's rights should trump the ultimate right- to life. So yes you can be feminist and pro life. No one owns the label "feminist" as far as I'm concerned, and no one will dictate to me what it can and can't mean.
As for autonomy- no one has full bodily autonomy for example;

  • you cannot consent to having grievous bodily harm inflicted on oneself it's against the law. There is stated case law of this sort of thing.
  • you can't demand to have an organ removed at will because you want to.
And sometimes life will just dictate what happens to your body and you don't get a choice. I think if your pro choice then you can also not be against sex selective abortion- if that's a woman's choice, it would be hypocritical to deny it and call yourself "pro-choice". How can you say it wrong to get rid of a female infant but ok to abort a disabled one- its all discrimination.
squarecorners · 28/02/2018 14:27

I mean that something has led to a baby being unwanted. Whether that is that the child or the mother is unable to survive if the pregnancy continues, whether there has been abuse, whether a relationship has ended, whether a mother is not in a place to care for a child - there is no such thing as a happy reason to get an abortion. If you can think of one I would be open to hear it. I just can't think of a situation where an abortion is a joyful situation - either an unfortunate circumstance has led to being pregnant unintentionally or a planned or wanted pregnancy can't be gone through with.

AssassinatedBeauty · 28/02/2018 14:29

Decisions don't have to be either joyful or a tragedy. They can be totally neutral, not sad or a tragedy.

squarecorners · 28/02/2018 14:30

For example?

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 14:32

Square-
You make sense to me,
An abortion shouldn't be a neutral decision- as if it were deciding to have for ones dinner tonight

splendide · 28/02/2018 14:35

I don't think it's always a tragedy. Sometimes (often?) it's just fixing a contraception failure.

Would you describe taking the MAP after a split condom as a tragedy? Not being goady, I'm genuinely interested.

Missymoo100 · 28/02/2018 14:40

Splen
MAP works usually by delaying ovulation so nothing is conceived.
It also prevents thickening of lining in the even of fertilistaion to prevent implantation but this is secondary to its mode of action.

Swipe left for the next trending thread