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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Women' in sport - don't doubt it isn't happening...

71 replies

lostlemon · 26/02/2018 09:06

I think this shows just how 'easy' it is going to be for men to take over womens sport unless something changes fast.

Mountain Biking: Lack of stand down period for transgender rider causes confusion for field

Given NZ is such a small country it seems to be leading the field in TIMs in womens sport with Laurel Hubbard already competing.

I am hoping that as this happens more and more there will be some push back from women and things will change but I'm wondering what it will take given this is justified by saying they are following governing body rules.

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AssassinatedBeauty · 26/02/2018 09:29

But it's totally fine because this competitor hasn't won all the races they've competed in since switching from the men's to the women's competitions. They've come second a couple of times to "other chicks", so it's totally fair and reasonable. Definitely no advantage at all from having male physiology, not at all.

BreakfastAtSquiffanys · 26/02/2018 09:33

It also states the national body and its members should treat a transsexual person as belonging to the sex they identify as, unless this might give the transsexual person an unfair advantage, or would be a risk to the safety of competitors
There's a clear get out clause which is being ignored

Thisusernamethingistricky · 26/02/2018 09:37

I know nothing about mountain biking - what kind of a gap is 13 seconds for 2nd and 47 seconds for 3rd? It seems a lot but, as I said, I know nothing!

Kate said "If everyone's not happy then maybe everyone's not doing their best racing and I just want everyone to be having fun and doing their best."

ODFOD

The women are clearly unhappy about this, but everyone is tying themselves up in knots trying to be 'inclusive' and 'fair'.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 26/02/2018 09:44

OK, so a quick Google tells me that those times are not a big gap in mountain biking I don't think. Every day is a school day!

Popchyk · 26/02/2018 09:45

So he competed as a man in the men's division?

Then 3 weeks later he competes against woman in the women's division?

Rather begs the question as to exactly what "transitioning" can be done in 3 weeks.

Thisusernamethingistricky · 26/02/2018 09:50

Yes, 3 weeks later. You couldn't make this horseshit up!

WhenWillThisMadnessEnd · 26/02/2018 09:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SweetGrapes · 26/02/2018 10:00

Lets get Andy Murray to go for both womens and mens this year. Or maybe mixed doubles with both blokes... Federrer and Murray teamed up... either this will highlight the issue enormously or backfire spectacularly... I think the former but not 100% sure.

lostlemon · 26/02/2018 10:06

What always seems to happen with these scenarios is that they point out that the TIM has previously lost a few races and then 'only' won by not what would be considered a large margin. Another thing I've noticed is that on the one hand the women weren't happy but no-one heard this. It's all too convenient.

I really feel for the women who have worked so hard to get to the top of their sport only to have a man come along and take the prize. Something needs to happen at the competitor level though because I can't see the IOC changing anything anytime soon.

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Patodp · 26/02/2018 10:16

The thing about the general public (sorry that sounds incredibly snobby but not sure how to put it!) People outside the feminist debate
They see it like, Transgender people are such a tiny tiny minority how on earth can there be such a fuss over it? The whole thing is dismissed as there are far more important issues facing more people.

There Are indeed just a tiny number of transwomen in the world (albeit rapidly growing) But you only need ONE to take something away from hundreds of women.

Eg sports. How many bloody TIMs are out there competing in weightlifting? ONE is the answer. And that one has taken first place in every women's weightlifting contest they have entered. Taking that opportunity for gold medal out of the hands of dozens of female competitors because of the unfair advantage of being a TIM.

How many TIMs trying to make it in female cycling? Just a handful. But every single one is taking first place, second place in women's racing with female racers being stripped of that opportunity because of the unfair advantage of being a TIM.

It goes the same in all women's space. ONE TIM in a female prison in Australia is under an investigation as to exactly how many women he impregnated and raped because there are so many of them. Hundreds of women are put in direct approximity in an inclosed space to a rapey male.

There is only one TIM in the entire school at Cromwell High school in conneticut, Andraya Yearwood, a slower than last place malevery runner, but bang. That's the chance for first place in both the 100m and 200m gone for every single girl at that school.

I am just not seeing how these people are the most opressed ever. There was no such thing as women's sport before the women's liberation movement 100 years ago.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 26/02/2018 10:23

Do you have a link to the TIM in Australian prison?

Patodp · 26/02/2018 10:24

"To permit as much inclusion as is fair price safe"
Well it's clearly not fair so I assume they've ignored women's safety too.

'Women' in sport - don't doubt it isn't happening...
QuentinSummers · 26/02/2018 10:41

More recent stuff about Hall here. Their motive for transitioning seems pretty clear from the pics Confused

www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/killer-maddison-hall-in-violent-relationship-with-hitandrun-lover/news-story/6b7da8f0440d2bbdb54196d3a675fbb4

lostlemon · 26/02/2018 10:43

I agree Patodp - just 1 TIM is 1 too many.

From what I understand re the unfair advantage is that they are saying as long as testerone levels are reduced for 12 months before and are down to 10 then it's all ok. The are many physiological advantages that men have in most sports (not all) these don't suddently disappear because they have reduced their testosterone.

The average for women is 2.8 for men it is 23-25, women don't get anywhere near the 10. This article is quite good although I don't like the use of cis:

Advantages for trans athletes

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MunchausensLovelyHorse · 26/02/2018 10:48

Yet Female-to-Male wrestler, Mack Beggs, on testosterone, is being told to carry on competing against girls, in Texas. Again it's an unfairness - because Mack has that extra testosterone and the strength advantage that comes with it, and has won every bout.

Some girls refusing to compete against Mack over safety fears. Crowd booing.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-wrestler-competes-against-girls-forced-mack-beggs-texas-america-a8227601.html

Sport is becoming a bloody shambles.

When Mack gets to wrestle men at college, Mack then will become the one in danger.

I think there are going to have to be transition categories. Or stick with 'sex at birth, no drugs'.

Patodp · 26/02/2018 10:58

lostlemon that link... "more research needs to be done. We're not quite sure but we think perhaps, there might be a slight, maybe, maybe not, advantage of being born male and competing against females"
(Paraphrased)

More research? It's bloody GCSE biology. A 14 year old could tell you it's unfair.

FFS.
It's good they've laid it out in black and white there though.

HerFemaleness · 26/02/2018 11:02

Was Kate competing as Anton last year? If so, a bloke who rarely got in to the top 20 in the men’s is now mopping up gold medals in the women’s.

bunbunny · 26/02/2018 11:02

I've also read that (on here somewhere) that the male range can start at 9 for testosterone, yet they allow it at 10 for TIM competing against women - who would be thrown out of the sport so quickly if their levels were to reach even half that...

where's there's money involved (or benefits like sports scholarships etc) then somebody brave needs to stand up and claim for money taken by deceit. And if they start getting threats or harassment then they need to add that into the charges... Probably impractical particularly for the women involved but interesting to think about.

Popchyk · 26/02/2018 11:05

You'd think the lack of any transmen competing in men's categories would cause someone to stop and think.

But no. It is always TIMs who are just so "talented".

lostlemon · 26/02/2018 11:17

Patodp - yes they were vague there however it's obvious that sufficient research has not been carried out. I'm very surprised that there is no scientific evidence at all.

It'll be quite amusing to see those old IOC representatives kissing the TIM winners when they give them their medals!

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lostlemon · 26/02/2018 11:20

Actually scratch that last comment - it won't be amusing at all :-(

Something else that I don't understand is that I thought drugs were banned - how are TIMs allowed to take drugs and get away with it? Are women now allowed to take testosterone to get their levels up within the 10?

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TimbuktuTimbuktu · 26/02/2018 11:31

Thank you!

Patodp · 26/02/2018 11:37

Only performing enhancing drugs are banned.
So a woman increasing her testosterone is banned but a man taking female sex hormones and lowering testosterone is permitted.

Patodp · 26/02/2018 11:37

Yes thanks QuentinSummers!