I am about to ID as a man

[YesItsADebate]

In 1.5 hours, I will be identifying as a gay man who does not conform with male gender stereotypes. I expect my local leisure facility to comply with the Swim England guidelines and agree that I am entitled to access the men-only swimming sessions, the male showers and toilets and to wear swimming trunks. I also expect them to re-educate any other man who objects to any of the above.

In other words, I have a meeting with the local swimming pool at 10 to see whether or not I’ll be resorting to topless swimming and public nudity tonight in an effort to prove my point that the Swim England guidelines are ridiculous

Wish me luck!

I've been wondering for ages about applying to join the Freemasons so I'm following this with interest.

Wow. Good for you OP. I'll be coming back to look for the verdict.

Considering how terrified of false rape and harassment allegations many men claim to be, you'd think they would be quite wary about sharing space with a naked female-bodied person.

I will be doing this next time I have a baby. Me and my screaming infant will be going on a men’s ward. No, a side room won’t do. Too othering.

I think there are a lot of men who would genuinely be mortified at having a naked female in their changing rooms. That could be for all sorts of reasons - from embarrassment at not being caught leering to anxiety of being accused of assault to just being a bit British and not knowing where the heck to look.

What I’m afraid of though of is that instead of coming to the conclusion that Swim England’s policy is bat shit crazy, and they need to bin it, they’ll embrace it.

They're already embracing it. There is nothing to lose.

And if they do embrace it, I hope the OP will have input into the re-education training of all their staff.

I'd like to see her, sorry him, tell everybody that breasts, whether pneumatic, sagging, old, or adolescent, are male organs.

And then print it in mainstream press.

And if the country still doesn't wake up, then we will just have to think of something else.

This isn't going to stop.

One thing I know for sure, is that if we do nothing, that's exactly what we will achieve.

OP, you are a legend!

Do pro-self ID TRAs really think they're so in the right that they don't notice other people's upset and discomfort, or do they just not care?

"You're beautiful when you're angry, darlin'"

For some men, discomforting and upsetting a woman who can do nothing about it is a very hot part of sexual intimidation, sexual harassment and sexual violence. Its the thrill of power and of overcoming women's boundaries. These are the men self ID might as well be gift wrapped for.

Well done OP. You are v brave.

The Round Table is still exclusively male (and ageist). The social events seem to be beer festivals, Ironman and other 'manly' pursuits.

The little women get to play housewife as part of the Ladies Circle and have exciting stuff like chocolate tasting events.

...swimming topless, showering naked in the men's showers, using the urinals (messily blush and changing in the men's open changing rooms.

If you're going to swim all through the month, don't forget they'll need to provide you with a sanpro bin. Acting otherwise would be transphobic.

I've just rejoined the Labour Party so I am not excluded from this event.

Noloudnoises ah diddums Is a woman not being nice? Did the bad woman hurt your feelings by showing I’d up for the dangerous crap that it is? Naughty YesItsADebate. Stop it, get back to being a nice girl and let those poor misunderstood men in dresses feel safe in the women’s changing rooms. Women know your place.

I'm beginning to think that we should have regular days when all MNers who are worried about this issue (the general issue not just Swim England) self-identify as men and see if we can get some debate started. Not least because whilst the discussions on this board are very interesting, they alone do not hold back the juggernaut. I am continuing my little acts of protest Little Act of Protest but suspect that it will require the concerted efforts of all concerned women showing what happens to the working of society if we all decide our identities on any given day and demand such self-id be respected even if that tramples on others' rights.

😂😂😂
Nit sure I have anything else to add.
We’ve heard about transwomen quite a lot. Let’s hear about transmen wanting the same privileges.

OP you're brilliant.

even if they do cancel single sex sessions, you can carry on presenting as a man so that will help.

I'm so glad you're brave enough to do this - thank you.

Love this. Well done OP. I especially like your choice of attire for the meeting.

Ugh, you sound like an antagonising, goading idiot.

I've been really interested to read other posters' responses on here and how different some of them are to the 'go girl' reactions male pro-self ID TRAs are getting when they force themselves into women's spaces.

I could have just shown up at the men's session, carried on as if I was a man and raised merry hell if I as challenged in any way. That's the way the TRAs are doing it. Instead, I:

• carefully read the law and Swim England guidelines;
• met with my MP and got his support;
• phoned the leisure chain's HQ to ask for their policies; and
• engaged with their management, by phone, email and in person, to discuss.

Maybe because I'm a woman and so have been socialised to care about other people's feelings and not to make a fuss? Even though I have taken great care over this, my actions have been described by a minority of other posters as childish, attention-seeking, antagonistic and goady. If this were a TRA platform, these posters would be instantly decried as transphobic. As it's MN, the vast majority if posters have been supportive. Thanks

My son doesn't use the urinals and my close male friends don't either (none of them like men very much).

YY to men not being comfortable - DH found himself using unisex toilets yesterday and inadvertently pushed open the door of a cubicle that was occupied by a woman - he was mortified - her explanation was that she'd left the door unlocked as she was afraid she'd get locked in !

I absolutely applaud the OP. I believe that there will be a lot of men who will defend their "single sex space" once they realise that they could be required to share with female bodied persons. Socialisation will lead to some interesting categories of "men" when faced with this scenario.

Some men are intimidated by women who don't fit the "feminine" stereotype - so will feel threatened by a "woman" who is behaving in such a masculine way and "flaunting" themselves in front of men with "no shame". Others will be territorial and want to "defend what is theirs" in terms of the space, and a further chivalrous type of man will become protective and want to shield female bodied people from the risks they know are posed by their fellow men.

This is brilliant - well done OP!

I am so impressed by your implacability YesItsADebate.

Following with interest is an understatement.

Wow thank you @YesItsADebate. You've certainly got balls ovaries! Thank you for this wonderful act of common sense.

If you're going to swim all through the month, don't forget they'll need to provide you with a sanpro bin. Acting otherwise would be transphobic

Actually a little bit of period blood on a toilet seat, shower room floor on your towel, might have a far better ‘Fuck no!’ reaction, than women’s tits in a male space. Can you imagine the uproar. After all if it’s transphobic to be offended by a dick reacting in a ‘natural’ manner, then surely it’s transphobic to react to a ‘man’s’ period. Speaking about the female reproductive system in transphobic, is it not?

We need a mumsnet meet (in the summer) at the Hampstead heath men's pond. Tip off some friendly journalists. Invade en masse.