I am about to ID as a man

[YesItsADebate]

In 1.5 hours, I will be identifying as a gay man who does not conform with male gender stereotypes. I expect my local leisure facility to comply with the Swim England guidelines and agree that I am entitled to access the men-only swimming sessions, the male showers and toilets and to wear swimming trunks. I also expect them to re-educate any other man who objects to any of the above.

In other words, I have a meeting with the local swimming pool at 10 to see whether or not I’ll be resorting to topless swimming and public nudity tonight in an effort to prove my point that the Swim England guidelines are ridiculous

Wish me luck!

This is ace!

Thanks for doing this YesItsADebate

I mentioned (lightheartedly) on another thread that I'm going to self-ID as male next time I go to Twickenham so I can access the male toilets. Last time I went I spent 20 minutes (not exaggerating) in a queue for the female toilets and missed a load of tries.

Well done OP!

It's funny how noody ever thinks about women IDing as men, all these guidelines and rules and changes in the law only benefit men.

And as far as trans males being vulnerable in men's changing rooms, the amount of trans males attacked in men's changing rooms is seriously so low as to be virtually undetectable. The amount of women attacked by males in women's changing rooms however....

babieseverywhere the guidelines already allow men in males in the private women's locker rooms, (but not breasts in the pools). That's why the OP is trying to show how ridiculous it is.

Worst case scenario they make it even for transmen but I don't think men are going to be too frightened of breasts in their pool lane.

I did once know a woman who acted like the male sex fantasy of women. She wore lacy lingerie to bed even when she was alone. It did all seem rather tiring and the "but why though?" responses from other women were pretty much universal.

Maybe she identified as a trans woman.

I'll join in.

*Well done lad!
*
Haha this x1000000

Valentinesfart Ah, right. So we have already lost those rights. Well glad to hear women have nothing to lose in the protest. Look forward to results.

Valentinesfart Ah, right. So we have already lost those rights. Well glad to hear women have nothing to lose in the protest. Look forward to results.

Bit depressing eh!

Rather than educating the sports centre as to why this guideline should be ignored, you are encouraging them to follow it.

Not really. The OP - congratulations, OP, you rock! - is attempting to show the chaos that will be caused by Swim England's guidance and, by extension, how the Very Important Men will react when they realise that women who might laugh at their tiny penises are about to invade their changing rooms en masse.

I salute you yesitsadebate

Have you had any media interest?

Valentinesfart Very depressing. I thought we still had though exceptions in the equality act to draw on but clearly not :(

Well done OP! Maybe some others will feel inspired to emulate you

🙌🏼

This statement reads as 100% what an MRA attempting to impersonate a woman would says, fwiw.

Well, quite.

It's all very simple.

Only a sex offender, a defender of sex offenders, or other males who pose significant risk to women and girls, would support the overriding of consent so that males can gain access to places of safety for women, girls and very young boy children.

If you think consent is important, you would accept that your inner identity and your individual need for validation does not override it.

Simple.

Proper update:

I thought pretty carefully about whether to go in gender-neutral clothing, e.g. jeans, hoodie and trainers, but decided that it would be far more effective if I clearly presented as a woman. So I wore a pencil skirt, tights, high heels, blouse, cardigan, wore my long hair down, applied makeup and carried a handbag.

The two managers had sent me an email asking to push the meeting time back a bit but I was too busy MNing so didn't look at my emails this morning and missed it. They squeezed me in anyway and we had a good chat. They were both very pleasant and polite and took careful note of my questions (in email above).

The manager leading the meeting was very focused on understanding my individual concerns. I said that I identified as a man and that I was not planning to change my appearance or seek hormone therapy or surgery to alter my appearance. She wanted to understand why I was interested in attending the men-only swimming sessions, which changing room, toilets and showers I would prefer to use and if I wanted to swim topless. I said that I wanted to know whether I could attend the men's sessions because they were specifically provided and that I wanted to use the men's single-sex facilities and swim topless.

They couldn't give me a decision today, which was a bit disappointing, but they did thank me for coming in to meet them and said that I can expect a response in a couple of weeks once their top management have had a chance to have a look at it. As a decision is still to be made, I took the chance to bring up the gap between the Swim England guidance and the EA exemption. I've put it in my email again so it's uber-clear that they have other options than embracing self-ID.

To be honest, it was really difficult for me to act against character and I really had to be strict with myself to ensure that I made my preferences in accessing men's spaces crystal clear. I'm sad that those really nice people I met are now going to think of me as utterly selfish. Do pro-self ID TRAs really think they're so in the right that they don't notice other people's upset and discomfort, or do they just not care?

I hope the papers don’t pick up on this yet. I don’t want the answer from the centre to be influenced by bullying TRAs. I want them to fluster and panic, because it might help a few of them realise how ridiculous and dangerous self I’d will be.

👏🏻👏🏼👏🏽 well done

Wish I were as brave as you!

I don't think it will damage the cause because I don't think men would generally want women in their changing rooms any more than we want them in ours.

But women in men's safe spaces isn't being raised or discussed because, let's face it, the assumption will be that women don't want to be in their either. So they haven't considered it.

Love this bit - "understand that [leisure chain] may choose to apply the exemption to discrimination on the basis of sex or gender reassignment in the Equality Act 2010, which allows organisations offering single-sex services in sensitive situations to exclude people of the opposite sex if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim"

Do pro-self ID TRAs really think they're so in the right that they don't notice other people's upset and discomfort, or do they just not care?

A bit of both, probably. Some of them seem to enjoy other people's discomfort and the opportunity to smug about how much more enlightened they are.

Can I ask OP if you kept your name for this? Did you change your first name at all and define yourself as Mr?

I'm going to be attending a Mermaids discussion soon and, propelled by your post, I'm going to self identify as a male during this and manspread too.

Great outfit - a perfect choice for the occasion.

I wish so much we could have had MN-cam so we could have watched and that the cam stayed on after you left the room to see their reaction! I don't know how you stayed serious. You are a true hero!

It is a shame that you had to in essence trick some lovely people who are there to help but I think if they are truly lovely, then they will realise the ridiculous-ness of the situation and may be on side if they knew.

Well done. Absolutely inspired!

Well done YesItsADebate. I agree that going as a obviously feminine woman was the best approach. The problem is, many people are so uneducated to the reality of self I’d that they picture TIMs as demure, shy women presenting people that just want a quiet life. I bet the people you spoke to will be on the internet for the next two weeks, getting an eye opener. 😁

RE. the media, I debated with myself whether or not to put this on here, but really, I don't mind if the swimming pools finds this thread. I've made it very clear to them that the only grounds I have for asking to be treated as a man is that I self-identify as one. I've asked for their policy on my questions. If they go with self-ID, it doesn't matter than in all respects I am a woman. Their own policies will mean that I must not be challenged by staff if I access men's spaces and if other sevice users question it, staff must re-educate them.