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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Want to know why women are livid? (trans thread)

204 replies

Datun · 22/02/2018 17:01

Want to know why so many posts start with 'Trans people should have full rights...but'...?

Because the equality act is being manipulated to elevate the rights of one protected characteristic over another.

Being mis-used. Being breached, in fact. It smells wrong, it feels wrong, it is wrong.

Because the equality act is designed to be fair. All protected groups have equal value.
It's got the word in the damn title.


But the one thing this doesn't feel like, is equal.

Equality decisions must fairly balance the needs of everyone affected. This does not mean treating everyone the same. Because sometimes treating people differently is the least discriminatory outcome overall.

So when a business wants to implement a new policy they must take into account how it will impact on all the protected characteristics and then work out the fairest and least discriminatory way to do it. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. A rule for one will impact others too and the Equality Act has been designed to reflect this reality. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against someone if overall it's the fairest thing to do for all concerned. The key phrase here is 'a proportionate means to a legitimate aim'.

And in no-one's book does fairness mean boys' sleeping in girls' accommodation, beating them at sport, making girls uncomfortable or working in a rape refuge.

It is not transphobic to raise this at work, in school, in leisure activities.

The gaslighting has to stop.

What we have been witnessing is no longer about fairness and inclusivity, it's about a cohort of men actively campaigning to hoodwink or coerce the public into validating NOT their identity, but their authority.

Can a refuge for women employ only women staff? Yes, of course they can. We all accept this because despite it being unfair to men it is overall the fairest thing to do for everyone involved. And for exactly the same reasons, it is lawful to exclude people who have reassigned their sex/gender, from that job role. In this instance, the internal gender feelings of the employee is not as important as the impact of their perceived maleness. The needs and impact on vulnerable women seeking refuge are greater than the needs and impact on a transgender person seeking employment. In this instance the balance falls squarely favour of women.

A transactivist will want everyone to draw everyone's attention solely to the impact and unfairness of that situation on the transgender people and claim DISCRIMINATION!. But that's just not how it works. It's written down in law – Occupational Requirements Schedule 9 Part 1.

There a lots of these legal exemptions written into Equality Law. They have been put there to be used and to protect women. We have to start insisting that they get applied. All of us. Now.

Here are some more examples that this time apply to services (Schedule 3, Part 7 Sections 26-28).

Can a woman ask for a female-born HCP? Yes, she can. It's not transphobic to say no to a transwoman in that context. She's not saying no because they are transgender – it's because they were born male and as someone born female she prefers the same.

It's written in law (Schedule 3, Part 7, Sections 26-28) and examples are set out in the Equality Act: “If a service is used by one or more people or involves physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex”.

What about changing rooms? If a TIM wants to use a female changing room with individual lockable cubicles and no-one minds, then fine. The overall balance is fair. But if people do object, and for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety when they in a state of undress, and they don't feel able to use the changing rooms with just a flimsy curtain that doesn't close properly, then the balance of fairness changes.

The equality act does not say oh well, too bad. The retailer must take into account the impact on other people too (women). If there are reasonable options available to the retailer that makes it fairer for all then they must consider them.

Insisting all transgender people must use the facility of their natal sex would be unfair to them, but this doesn't mean the only fair option is to allow them into the facility for the opposite sex or to make the whole thing uni-sex and to hell with how the women feel. It could be enough to provide them with an alternative, just for them. This is a fair balance that considers everyone.

But a retailer doesn't know the impact on us unless tell we tell them. Women are socialised to not object. Which is part of the problem. Let's stop doing that. Let's hold our retailers to account to uphold the equality act by telling them we object, and why. They must take that into account.

Don't wait for it to actually happen. Get them to formalise their policies and insist they take women seriously from the start.

What about fairness in sport?

The equality act is quite clear. It's written into Equality law Schedule 16 Part 1. It's is entirely lawful to restrict participation of transgender people if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition.

“A gender-affected activity is a sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature in circumstances in which the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex as competitors in events involving the activity.

The IOC have issued guidelines that rely on testosterone being the determining factor and deciding that reducing it will eliminate the advantage TIMs have. But when men are routinely beating women, it's quite clear that this is not an adequate determinate.

Sporting bodies, Swim UK, etc, should be able to provide evidence of a level playing field. Otherwise it is neither fair or safe for women and this is in breach of equality law.

What about communal accommodation - Girl Guides, school trips, dorms?

Again there is a exemption in the equality Act to deal with this (Schedule 23). It explicitly states that transgender people can be excluded from communal accommodation for use by one sex if that is that's the fairness thing to do overall. In other words, the least discriminatory option. The needs of all pupils must be considered. The protection of the dignity and privacy of girls, is a legitimate aim. Furthermore, requiring pupils to share accommodation with the opposite sex raises specific issues around menstruation, risk of pregnancy, etc. Any institution which fails to acknowledge and accommodate these issues when formulating policy will risk breaching the EA.

The EA does need tightening up. Not ripping up. TIMs are already assuming they have a whole bowl of fruit and making everyone else assume it, when, in actual fact, they only have a couple of plums.

It's now no surprise that the favoured narrative is that trans people are oppressed, abused, murdered, at risk. Because it is that description that has somehow elevated the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' above 'sex' in people's mind. It's completely wrong.

They have equal value As does sexual orientation. Claiming lesbians are transphobic for not sleeping with natal males, is NOT upholding the equality law. And I realise it's only individuals who are mainly saying this, but Stonewall have refused to clarify that homosexuality means same sex attraction.

We have to change the narrative here.

We can change it. We have the right to change it.

We just need to do it.

OP posts:

RosenbergW · 22/02/2018 19:00

Is there a version of the fact sheet that can be printed cheaply on a mono printer?


Datun · 22/02/2018 19:01

We hold the purse strings I hear.

Who, generally, buys the clothes in Marks & Spencer's, Primark, H&M?

Who, generally, takes the kids to the athletics meeting, the roller derby, the hockey match?

Who, generally, buys the Christmas gift Santa jumpers?, the comedy, Disney onesies?

Who, almost exclusively ends up in a bloody rape refuge?

Who is it exactly, who has the actual power here?

You want my vote? My money?

Well, you'd better bloody start negotiating.

OP posts:

UnderTheDesk · 22/02/2018 19:04

Datsun, can I post this to Twitter?


UnderTheDesk · 22/02/2018 19:05

Datun! Sorry. My auto-correct is from the 80s.


rowdywoman1 · 22/02/2018 19:06

Fantastic Datun. It's time that we went for the retailers. AND the Swimming Association and Headteachers and all the Unions / Sports bodies encouraging people to breach the Equality Act.

Have pm'd you.


Dougthepug · 22/02/2018 19:06

Amazing post Datun. Thanks for all the info :)


Dougthepug · 22/02/2018 19:07

Darn, sorry for posting twice! I couldn't see my previous one.


DoctorW · 22/02/2018 19:11

I have a B/W version of the factsheet too for cheaper printing :-)

It would be fantastic if we all printed some off and handed them out to retailers. Stick them up on notice boards in shops. Hand them out to customers.


Cocolepew · 22/02/2018 19:13

This is great, thank you.


Ouchbirthhurted · 22/02/2018 19:14

Datun honestly most normal people will not go anywhere near voting for a party that supports Self-ID. I feel it is really important we don't get tricked into negotiating with men on the detail, we have to point out that the whole premise is wrong - trans women are NOT women.

We got the vote 100 years ago. We're just not used to having to use it to retain our rights, but I can guarantee you women - and their fathers, brothers, sons - will on this one, once they see it.

This is the biggest women's rights issue in a century. And it will affect every woman and girl in this country. And other countries too. It's all very well wanting to lead the way on trans rights - what about setting an example for women's rights? If we pass self-Id here it will be pointed to as an example for women in other countries who have far less protection than we do, and won't be able to enforce equality rights.

Women are women. Anyone else is someone who feels they want to live as a woman. That is the STARTING point for any discussion, not the beginning negotiating point.


Datun · 22/02/2018 19:17


You can. But keep my name off.

And don't say comes from mumsnet.

I'm not interested in attracting threats!

OP posts:

RaininSummer · 22/02/2018 19:22

Good job Datun.


CAAKE · 22/02/2018 19:26

Yes, be very careful on twitter. I don't like, comment on or share anything GC at all because I can't risk it, but I've recently been targeted (I had a TIM/TA sending me disgusting DMs) purely because of who I follow. I've consequently unfollowed most of the GC people/accounts I was following. They are relentless.


UnderTheDesk · 22/02/2018 19:27

Fair enough. I won't post it wholesale so, to keep your name and Mumsnet out of it. Thanks!


UnderTheDesk · 22/02/2018 19:30

I only use Twitter for GC stuff, CAAKE and my account there doesn't have my name for n it or any personal info. So far I haven't had any problems, but I'm aware that that could change.


DarthArts · 22/02/2018 19:33

Great post 🌟🌟🌟🌟


ElfrideSwancourt · 22/02/2018 19:39

Fantastic post thank you for sharing Smile


worita · 22/02/2018 19:39

Datun, you're almost definitely on some lists. Is there any info on you on Mumsnet that could be used to out you? If so can you get it redacted?


AccioWine · 22/02/2018 19:40

I often wish there was a like button here! No complacency here, datun, I am galvanised. Time to speak out.


FruHagen · 22/02/2018 19:44

Brilliant post.

I'm one of those who had assumed wrongly that trans rights were progressive and in some way feminist.

Then I started to read the GC posts here, I read everything (and everything said by TRAs in other places too) and I'm really thankful to you here. I have changed my mind. I have been educated.

Thanks to you all on this board and thanks @Datun

Hugely important work


mercurymaze · 22/02/2018 19:46

Lurk so I can easily access this when needed thank you!


Datun · 22/02/2018 19:47

Take the exemptions from DoctorW's link.

When you're queueing up at M&S to pay for your stuff, slap it on the counter, and say I won't be shopping here again unless you take notice of women.

The sales assistant won't know what the fuck you're talking about. Tell them to take it to the HR department.

Give it to everyone, in your life, wherever you have skin in the game.

Just hand to them and say I won't be swimming here, changing here, buying here, unless you listen to women.

If they get it once, they might think what the fuck? If they get it twice, they WILL take notice.

Because how often would that ever happen?

Transactivists have managed to get their set of demands disseminated bloody everywhere. To schools, HCPs, universities, the government.

It's taken them years.

If every woman on here does this, and tells as many other women as possible to do it, it will catch fire at a phenomenal rate.

I'm looking at my feet, at the moment.

I can't help noticing the brand of my trainers.

"Just Do It".

And in a quite spectacular moment of serendipity, I googled the meaning of Nike:

In ancient Greek religion, Nike (/ˈnaɪki/; Greek: Νίκη, "Victory", Ancient Greek: [nǐːkɛː]) was a goddess who personified victory. Her Roman equivalent was Victoria"

OP posts:

Datun · 22/02/2018 19:51


Datun, you're almost definitely on some lists. Is there any info on you on Mumsnet that could be used to out you? If so can you get it redacted?

I'm very likely on a list. But the only place my personal info is kept is in MNHQ.

Which I feel needs the invocation of the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard'.

Mumsnet is a ferocious leopard. 12 million women.

Bring it on.

OP posts:

GardenGeek · 22/02/2018 19:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GardenGeek · 22/02/2018 19:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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