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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Want to know why women are livid? (trans thread)

204 replies

Datun · 22/02/2018 17:01

Want to know why so many posts start with 'Trans people should have full rights...but'...?

Because the equality act is being manipulated to elevate the rights of one protected characteristic over another.

Being mis-used. Being breached, in fact. It smells wrong, it feels wrong, it is wrong.

Because the equality act is designed to be fair. All protected groups have equal value.
It's got the word in the damn title.


But the one thing this doesn't feel like, is equal.

Equality decisions must fairly balance the needs of everyone affected. This does not mean treating everyone the same. Because sometimes treating people differently is the least discriminatory outcome overall.

So when a business wants to implement a new policy they must take into account how it will impact on all the protected characteristics and then work out the fairest and least discriminatory way to do it. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. A rule for one will impact others too and the Equality Act has been designed to reflect this reality. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against someone if overall it's the fairest thing to do for all concerned. The key phrase here is 'a proportionate means to a legitimate aim'.

And in no-one's book does fairness mean boys' sleeping in girls' accommodation, beating them at sport, making girls uncomfortable or working in a rape refuge.

It is not transphobic to raise this at work, in school, in leisure activities.

The gaslighting has to stop.

What we have been witnessing is no longer about fairness and inclusivity, it's about a cohort of men actively campaigning to hoodwink or coerce the public into validating NOT their identity, but their authority.

Can a refuge for women employ only women staff? Yes, of course they can. We all accept this because despite it being unfair to men it is overall the fairest thing to do for everyone involved. And for exactly the same reasons, it is lawful to exclude people who have reassigned their sex/gender, from that job role. In this instance, the internal gender feelings of the employee is not as important as the impact of their perceived maleness. The needs and impact on vulnerable women seeking refuge are greater than the needs and impact on a transgender person seeking employment. In this instance the balance falls squarely favour of women.

A transactivist will want everyone to draw everyone's attention solely to the impact and unfairness of that situation on the transgender people and claim DISCRIMINATION!. But that's just not how it works. It's written down in law – Occupational Requirements Schedule 9 Part 1.

There a lots of these legal exemptions written into Equality Law. They have been put there to be used and to protect women. We have to start insisting that they get applied. All of us. Now.

Here are some more examples that this time apply to services (Schedule 3, Part 7 Sections 26-28).

Can a woman ask for a female-born HCP? Yes, she can. It's not transphobic to say no to a transwoman in that context. She's not saying no because they are transgender – it's because they were born male and as someone born female she prefers the same.

It's written in law (Schedule 3, Part 7, Sections 26-28) and examples are set out in the Equality Act: “If a service is used by one or more people or involves physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex”.

What about changing rooms? If a TIM wants to use a female changing room with individual lockable cubicles and no-one minds, then fine. The overall balance is fair. But if people do object, and for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety when they in a state of undress, and they don't feel able to use the changing rooms with just a flimsy curtain that doesn't close properly, then the balance of fairness changes.

The equality act does not say oh well, too bad. The retailer must take into account the impact on other people too (women). If there are reasonable options available to the retailer that makes it fairer for all then they must consider them.

Insisting all transgender people must use the facility of their natal sex would be unfair to them, but this doesn't mean the only fair option is to allow them into the facility for the opposite sex or to make the whole thing uni-sex and to hell with how the women feel. It could be enough to provide them with an alternative, just for them. This is a fair balance that considers everyone.

But a retailer doesn't know the impact on us unless tell we tell them. Women are socialised to not object. Which is part of the problem. Let's stop doing that. Let's hold our retailers to account to uphold the equality act by telling them we object, and why. They must take that into account.

Don't wait for it to actually happen. Get them to formalise their policies and insist they take women seriously from the start.

What about fairness in sport?

The equality act is quite clear. It's written into Equality law Schedule 16 Part 1. It's is entirely lawful to restrict participation of transgender people if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition.

“A gender-affected activity is a sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature in circumstances in which the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex as competitors in events involving the activity.

The IOC have issued guidelines that rely on testosterone being the determining factor and deciding that reducing it will eliminate the advantage TIMs have. But when men are routinely beating women, it's quite clear that this is not an adequate determinate.

Sporting bodies, Swim UK, etc, should be able to provide evidence of a level playing field. Otherwise it is neither fair or safe for women and this is in breach of equality law.

What about communal accommodation - Girl Guides, school trips, dorms?

Again there is a exemption in the equality Act to deal with this (Schedule 23). It explicitly states that transgender people can be excluded from communal accommodation for use by one sex if that is that's the fairness thing to do overall. In other words, the least discriminatory option. The needs of all pupils must be considered. The protection of the dignity and privacy of girls, is a legitimate aim. Furthermore, requiring pupils to share accommodation with the opposite sex raises specific issues around menstruation, risk of pregnancy, etc. Any institution which fails to acknowledge and accommodate these issues when formulating policy will risk breaching the EA.

The EA does need tightening up. Not ripping up. TIMs are already assuming they have a whole bowl of fruit and making everyone else assume it, when, in actual fact, they only have a couple of plums.

It's now no surprise that the favoured narrative is that trans people are oppressed, abused, murdered, at risk. Because it is that description that has somehow elevated the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' above 'sex' in people's mind. It's completely wrong.

They have equal value As does sexual orientation. Claiming lesbians are transphobic for not sleeping with natal males, is NOT upholding the equality law. And I realise it's only individuals who are mainly saying this, but Stonewall have refused to clarify that homosexuality means same sex attraction.

We have to change the narrative here.

We can change it. We have the right to change it.

We just need to do it.

OP posts:

Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/02/2018 18:08

This is great Star


swivelchair · 22/02/2018 18:09

2018 is the year that will stick in the minds of people for when women said no.

And, as we all know, thanks to Mumsnet that is a complete sentence.

And that, is a mic drop.


SecretsRsecrets · 22/02/2018 18:11

Fantastic post Datun.

Just a suggestion if Datun doesn't mind, I don't live in UK so can't help, but it might be an idea to copy this out and start dropping off copies to different shops, Guides, refuges, spas, pools etc. Many people don't know their rights, so they just go along with what they are being told. This might give them the courage to step forward and say no if they know they have backing under the law.

Good luckFlowers


TeaEnjoyingRadientFeminist · 22/02/2018 18:12

Datun you are spectacular. Thank you for posting this (and all of your other incredibly enlightening posts)!


DamnDeDoubtanceIsSpartacus · 22/02/2018 18:12

This gives us some wind beneath our wings. we need to remind people that women and girls are protected, as a sex.


moofolk · 22/02/2018 18:13

Well said


PlectrumElectrum · 22/02/2018 18:13


I'm applauding but place marking too cos I'm using this to do what you've said we need to.



NoqontroI · 22/02/2018 18:15

Brilliant post op.


DoctorW · 22/02/2018 18:18

The Equality Act exemptions is the stick we can beat service providers with. Datun's post shows us we have that stick. For too long the trans lobby have told us we have nothing. They lied.

Now we have to pick up this damn stick and wave it around! This is a call to action. Knowledge is power - and we have the power now. Mumsnet has the numbers to make an impact with this.


Writersblock2 · 22/02/2018 18:22

Acciowine That’s often how I feel - like there’s no point jumping in because so many can say it better than I can. And it is silly. All of our voices matter.

Brilliant post, Datun, as always. Thank you for your work.


HolgerDanske · 22/02/2018 18:22

Thank you.

We will NOT be shouted down.


invitroveritas · 22/02/2018 18:23

How can trans men ever be women and force themselves into female society? They can't - I only feel comfortable with the concept that they can be untypical males - that is their phenomenology and will therefore be their narrative.


Datun · 22/02/2018 18:31


Acciowine That’s often how I feel - like there’s no point jumping in because so many can say it better than I can. And it is silly. All of our voices matter.

I'm not an academic, I haven't read all the feminist books that other feminists have. Politics gives me a headache. Sometimes I can't choose. I agree with that from A, but that from B.

But I don't need any qualifications or to be steeped in theory.

My only qualification is that I'm a bloody woman.

You don't need anything else.

Normal, everyday women, going about their business. Picking up a pair of pants in M&S, cheering their kids on at sports day, working, studying, writing, baking, making laws or cleaning the toilets.

Every, single, individual woman who has had a what the fuck moment is absolutely crucial.

All of us and each of us.

The answer is NO.

OP posts:

NowtSalamander · 22/02/2018 18:37

Thank you. Except I suddenly don’t feel like eating plums...Grin


womanhuman · 22/02/2018 18:38

Thanks Datun.

I’d be up for donating to a crowdfunder for an ad somewhere.


thebewilderness · 22/02/2018 18:39

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others"
How can people not see the very thing we warn every generation to beware of?


Ouchbirthhurted · 22/02/2018 18:40

Datun I see it, I see what you see. Anyone outside of the Westminster bubble can see it in about 30 seconds. There are quite a lot of women with the right to vote. And a good few decent sane men.


Ouchbirthhurted · 22/02/2018 18:41

We just need to tell people.


Elletorro · 22/02/2018 18:47

Doctor W’svs exemptions and guardians leaflet can be a 2 pronged attack.

I’m not very brave but I’m happy to approach retailers to see if they will discuss. Surely they want middle aged women to spend our money there.

We hold the purse strings I hear. So let’s make that little bit of sexism work in our favour


Datun · 22/02/2018 18:49


Thanks Datun.

I’d be up for donating to a crowdfunder for an ad somewhere.

It's not the first time I've heard that suggestion.

It's finding a company who are on afraid to get backlash.

OP posts:

Datun · 22/02/2018 18:49


OP posts:

womanhuman · 22/02/2018 18:52

(I’m also imagining you on a bank note when you’ve saved us all from a dystopian future 😀💷)


Lkjem · 22/02/2018 18:53

Brilliant datun you lovely brave woman.
I just hide the trans threads as they make me sick.
Thank you!😁


Datun · 22/02/2018 18:55



This is becoming far more cohesive. We are banding together.

All of us.

For a quick cut out and keep guide to the equality act, see DoctorW's handy print out.

Slap it on the counter at Marks & Spencer's. Tell them to take it to their HR department. Give it to your sports coach. Your child's swim teacher, Girl Guide leader.

Hell, laminate it and give it to your boss. Tell them they must read it and listen. Otherwise they could be breaking EA law.

OP posts:

Dougthepug · 22/02/2018 18:57

Amazing post Datun :) I'd happily contribute to a crowdfunder for an ad too.

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