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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Want to know why women are livid? (trans thread)

204 replies

Datun · 22/02/2018 17:01

Want to know why so many posts start with 'Trans people should have full rights...but'...?

Because the equality act is being manipulated to elevate the rights of one protected characteristic over another.

Being mis-used. Being breached, in fact. It smells wrong, it feels wrong, it is wrong.

Because the equality act is designed to be fair. All protected groups have equal value.
It's got the word in the damn title.


But the one thing this doesn't feel like, is equal.

Equality decisions must fairly balance the needs of everyone affected. This does not mean treating everyone the same. Because sometimes treating people differently is the least discriminatory outcome overall.

So when a business wants to implement a new policy they must take into account how it will impact on all the protected characteristics and then work out the fairest and least discriminatory way to do it. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum. A rule for one will impact others too and the Equality Act has been designed to reflect this reality. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against someone if overall it's the fairest thing to do for all concerned. The key phrase here is 'a proportionate means to a legitimate aim'.

And in no-one's book does fairness mean boys' sleeping in girls' accommodation, beating them at sport, making girls uncomfortable or working in a rape refuge.

It is not transphobic to raise this at work, in school, in leisure activities.

The gaslighting has to stop.

What we have been witnessing is no longer about fairness and inclusivity, it's about a cohort of men actively campaigning to hoodwink or coerce the public into validating NOT their identity, but their authority.

Can a refuge for women employ only women staff? Yes, of course they can. We all accept this because despite it being unfair to men it is overall the fairest thing to do for everyone involved. And for exactly the same reasons, it is lawful to exclude people who have reassigned their sex/gender, from that job role. In this instance, the internal gender feelings of the employee is not as important as the impact of their perceived maleness. The needs and impact on vulnerable women seeking refuge are greater than the needs and impact on a transgender person seeking employment. In this instance the balance falls squarely favour of women.

A transactivist will want everyone to draw everyone's attention solely to the impact and unfairness of that situation on the transgender people and claim DISCRIMINATION!. But that's just not how it works. It's written down in law – Occupational Requirements Schedule 9 Part 1.

There a lots of these legal exemptions written into Equality Law. They have been put there to be used and to protect women. We have to start insisting that they get applied. All of us. Now.

Here are some more examples that this time apply to services (Schedule 3, Part 7 Sections 26-28).

Can a woman ask for a female-born HCP? Yes, she can. It's not transphobic to say no to a transwoman in that context. She's not saying no because they are transgender – it's because they were born male and as someone born female she prefers the same.

It's written in law (Schedule 3, Part 7, Sections 26-28) and examples are set out in the Equality Act: “If a service is used by one or more people or involves physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex”.

What about changing rooms? If a TIM wants to use a female changing room with individual lockable cubicles and no-one minds, then fine. The overall balance is fair. But if people do object, and for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety when they in a state of undress, and they don't feel able to use the changing rooms with just a flimsy curtain that doesn't close properly, then the balance of fairness changes.

The equality act does not say oh well, too bad. The retailer must take into account the impact on other people too (women). If there are reasonable options available to the retailer that makes it fairer for all then they must consider them.

Insisting all transgender people must use the facility of their natal sex would be unfair to them, but this doesn't mean the only fair option is to allow them into the facility for the opposite sex or to make the whole thing uni-sex and to hell with how the women feel. It could be enough to provide them with an alternative, just for them. This is a fair balance that considers everyone.

But a retailer doesn't know the impact on us unless tell we tell them. Women are socialised to not object. Which is part of the problem. Let's stop doing that. Let's hold our retailers to account to uphold the equality act by telling them we object, and why. They must take that into account.

Don't wait for it to actually happen. Get them to formalise their policies and insist they take women seriously from the start.

What about fairness in sport?

The equality act is quite clear. It's written into Equality law Schedule 16 Part 1. It's is entirely lawful to restrict participation of transgender people if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition.

“A gender-affected activity is a sport, game or other activity of a competitive nature in circumstances in which the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage compared to average persons of the other sex as competitors in events involving the activity.

The IOC have issued guidelines that rely on testosterone being the determining factor and deciding that reducing it will eliminate the advantage TIMs have. But when men are routinely beating women, it's quite clear that this is not an adequate determinate.

Sporting bodies, Swim UK, etc, should be able to provide evidence of a level playing field. Otherwise it is neither fair or safe for women and this is in breach of equality law.

What about communal accommodation - Girl Guides, school trips, dorms?

Again there is a exemption in the equality Act to deal with this (Schedule 23). It explicitly states that transgender people can be excluded from communal accommodation for use by one sex if that is that's the fairness thing to do overall. In other words, the least discriminatory option. The needs of all pupils must be considered. The protection of the dignity and privacy of girls, is a legitimate aim. Furthermore, requiring pupils to share accommodation with the opposite sex raises specific issues around menstruation, risk of pregnancy, etc. Any institution which fails to acknowledge and accommodate these issues when formulating policy will risk breaching the EA.

The EA does need tightening up. Not ripping up. TIMs are already assuming they have a whole bowl of fruit and making everyone else assume it, when, in actual fact, they only have a couple of plums.

It's now no surprise that the favoured narrative is that trans people are oppressed, abused, murdered, at risk. Because it is that description that has somehow elevated the protected characteristic of 'gender reassignment' above 'sex' in people's mind. It's completely wrong.

They have equal value As does sexual orientation. Claiming lesbians are transphobic for not sleeping with natal males, is NOT upholding the equality law. And I realise it's only individuals who are mainly saying this, but Stonewall have refused to clarify that homosexuality means same sex attraction.

We have to change the narrative here.

We can change it. We have the right to change it.

We just need to do it.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 22/02/2018 17:14

Imagine this as a host of emojis celebrating the simple obvious truth of what you have said here.

Ouchbirthhurted · 22/02/2018 17:18

Datun you are wonderful

Freshlylaidterf · 22/02/2018 17:19

Well said Datun

ButteredScone · 22/02/2018 17:20

Too long. We really need to make this snappier.

But I agree.

SnowontheCordyline · 22/02/2018 17:24

Brilliant Datun, thank you.

(Grin at "a couple of plums")

Datun · 22/02/2018 17:27

Believe me ButteredScone it was 100 times longer before I pared it all down!

I wanted to get the information on here. So people can access it.

Anyone who is fucked off that their daughter is sharing a tent with a boy, or has just being beaten at the athletics meeting by a man, can refer to the relevant bit.

Because this is what we need to do.

Every single time.

No one wants to wade through the equality act to find the relevant bit and then be a bit unsure as to whether they are interpreting it correctly.

One post on mumsnet is now sufficient.

The snappy version would be, 'invoke the equality act!'

Now you can.

We all can.

Let's bloody do it.

OP posts:
LifelongVaginaOwner · 22/02/2018 17:28

Excellent, thanks @Datun

(Also sniggering like a child at the plums)

averylongtimeago · 22/02/2018 17:30


DoctorW · 22/02/2018 17:31

Excellent post - this is spot on Datun.

The Equality Act's single-sex exemptions are the best kept secret that transactivists don't want women to know about. We've been conned that transgender people have to be centred else its discrimination.

Equality Law recognises the reality that in some instances biological sex will matter. This means people can be excluded not only on the grounds of sex (male) but also on the grounds of gender reassignment. So even if a trans person has a GRC and has legally changed their birth certificate to female they can still be excluded from a woman-only space based on the grounds of gender reassignment if this is deemed to be a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

The problem is that most organisations are shamefully ignorant of this law. We need to start educating them.

I have a factsheet here summarising the single-sex exemptions. Print it off - hand it out to retailers - lets start challenging the status quo. Demand that women are considered in their policies.

morningrunner · 22/02/2018 17:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cliques · 22/02/2018 17:36

Beautifully put. I have yet to raise this with anyone other than friends. They all agree that it is madness. None of the men or women in my friendship group have an innate sense of gender. We all conform with stereotypes of both genders in some ways, but there is no feeling of manliness of femininity. I’m starting to think that what we have are men and women (with no strong internalisation of gender-stereotypes) and gender-feelers (who think they are supposed to have one feeling or another, and are either confused by a lack of it - despite that being how the vast majority feel - or totally believe in the stereotypes that either match their sex or don’t).

Many of my interests are traditionally masculine, as were my mother’s. I’m so glad that Tom-boy me, with my short hair, and muddy knees, didn't have any pressure on her to ruin her fertility. I did not have the maturity to recognise my womanhood, and I would have destroyed my happiness. I was never going to have children. They are my greatest joy.

Sorry for the ramble, but I’m tired of seeing young autistic girls, just like I was, questioning their lack of a sense of gender and being hoovered up by the trans machine.

LangCleg · 22/02/2018 17:37

I love you, Datun.

And yes - possibly the most infuriating thing about transactivism is the utter refusal to acknowledge competing rights. We acknowledge competing rights in every other sphere. We have a body of legislation and decades of case precedence and jurisprudence all based around balancing competing rights.

We also have decades of developed knowledge and research and understanding of safeguarding and risk factors that must be mitigated by a responsible state.

And all of a sudden, we must throw all this away on behalf of one small group, whose desires (not, I emphasise, NEEDS) must come before everyone and everything?

I don't think so.

We women aren't supposed to say no. Even nice men don't like to hear it. But the dangerous ones are at their most dangerous when told no. And we can see how dangerous transactivists are when told no - from threats, doxxing, complaints to employers, no platforming and all the rest of it right up to assault (eg Speakers Corner) and even attempted murder (eg Lauren Jeska).

We need to say no.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 22/02/2018 17:40

@Datun - you are a legend! Thank you for articulating it all so clearly. Your post should be copined and pasted wherever the trans-activists try to shut down discussion or trample all over women’s rights.

LangCleg · 22/02/2018 17:41

The Equality Act's single-sex exemptions are the best kept secret that transactivists don't want women to know about.

Exactly. I do feel that the Equality Act is even more important to defend than opposing changes to the GRA.

And, much as pains me to do it, I will note again that the Conservatives are now saying, from the Home Secretary in TV interviews to backbench MPs writing to constituents, that they are no longer proposing to change it.

This is a clear difference in favour of women between Labour and the Tories.

AccioWine · 22/02/2018 17:42

@Datun truly thank you. You are a balm to my worries over this. So many articulate women on here have helped me clarify my thoughts about this. I lurk on all these threads, but never quite feel my input is necessary/ useful. It feels scary to put my head over the parapet (which is ridiculous) but I am starting to get braver on sm and in rl thanks to all you wonderful women, so Thanks &Wine to you all. Now back to lurking...

terryleather · 22/02/2018 17:48

Brava Datun ! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
...*glad I'm not the only one sniggering at plums...Blush

TerfsUp · 22/02/2018 17:48

Excellent summary, Datun.

whitehandledkitchenknife · 22/02/2018 17:51

Thank you yet again Datun Star

Destinysdaughter · 22/02/2018 17:51

Datun that's brilliant, thanks for taking the time to do this, it's so clear and it's really important for us to know exactly what the law is in this area as I've found it a bit foggy up till now. I'm going to print it off and learn it for when I need it

You're a Star!

PissedOffWoman · 22/02/2018 17:52

Datun thank you for writing this. We need to broadcast this far and wide.

(I loved what you did when you said "TIMs are already assuming they have a whole bowl of fruit and making everyone else assume it, when, in actual fact, they only have a couple of plums.")

terryleather · 22/02/2018 17:55


I posted on the Spartacus thread but lurked for months and months before I was brave enough to post again.

The first post is the hardest and now I won't shut up...Grin!

Keep speaking out, our voices are getting louder...

CAAKE · 22/02/2018 17:57

Thank you Datun 🤩

Datun · 22/02/2018 17:59


@Datun truly thank you. You are a balm to my worries over this.


Delighted though I am to be a balm, (I love that image) I don't want this post to invoke a feeling of complacency.

If I have learnt one thing on mumsnet, it's the power of numbers.

This isn't about transactivism happening online, or elsewhere. This is in everyone's backyard.

Women like me, you and everyone on here are just beginning to understand how much power they truly have.

That power will go down the drain, if we don't start to harness it.

Talking to people, telling them how transactivism is damaging to women children, and also being that bloody minded woman at the counter in Marks & Spencer's, or our kids' sports team, or the guide leader, or the athletics coach.

We're socialised not to make a fuss.

But I don't think any of us are under any kind of illusion about how much of a bloody, outraged, memorable fuss we can make, when we want to.

2018 is the year that will stick in the minds of people for when women said no.

And, as we all know, thanks to Mumsnet that is a complete sentence.

OP posts:
PetraDelphiki · 22/02/2018 18:01

Thank you!!

worita · 22/02/2018 18:03

Brilliantly said Datun

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