If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

That is a shame. I really would like to know how I know I am a woman, so I can understand why some men claim to be a woman. How do I know. How do they know? There must be an answer, I have my answer but it's to do with biology which I'm guessing some think is wrong. So please tell me the 'right' answer.

The problem being pro trans and ambivalent about self id is I don't feel my views are taken seriously. I'm in a minority, easily ignored or drowned out. To cut to the chase.

As I understand we already have self id for everything except the birth certificate, all other ID can be changed by a deed poll for name and gender pronouns. It is the very institutions that go on the birth certificate (sports, refuges, prisons etc. Previously pensions and marriage, but they are equalised anyway) that are exempt under the GRA. So on paper it seems a pointless exercise, more a symbolic move for transgender people. At present someone challenged over say toilets or changing rooms could produce a document with the self id gender including driving license, passport (with a GPs note), Citizencard etc. so we already have self id in your more everyday scenarios. It takes a lot of paperwork and practical implications to change those so it can't be done on a whim.

Whether existing self id has gone too far already is another debate.

My views come from contact with quite a few TG, all male to female including a fully post op having hell over her GRC application, a pre op but on hormones over a year, and a couple at DDs school and dance class.

Did anyone ever explain how I (we) know I'm (we're) a woman (women)?

I came to the conclusion many months ago, that I am no longer a woman based on current usage.

To be honest, I personally wouldn't be too upset at giving up that label. After all, it's just a word.

Then for a long while, I thought that although 'woman' didn't apply to me, I could still consider myself 'female '. That usage has changed as well now.

So how it seems that I no longer have a name for myself that identifies me as being 'of female biology.' And that does bother me, a lot.

Apparently the argument for 'transwomen are women' is that we have no right to say how others can or can't define themselves. Yet I feel that my own right to name myself as a biological female has been eradicated.

Flamingowings I found your post really confusing.

You could argue that transwomen are women. Fine, have it that way for a minute. But then a lesbian might say that people who have or have had a penis do not fit in line with their preferences

This is exactly the type of slippery thinking that ends with lesbians being pressured to accept dick. Lesbians don't fancy transwomen because they are male. Being a lesbian is not a preference it's a sexual orientation and as such is protected under the equality act for very good reasons. is good on this stuff.

langcleg How can you bring up Jimmy saville into the self ID debate? Fairly well documented that he was proud to be a man.

None so blind as those who won't see.

I was - quite clearly and in plain English - describing how safeguarding responsibilities evolved in response to crises generated by scandals. One such scandal was the Savile scandal. Protocols were changed in response to it to reduce the chances of it ever happening again.

Self-ID proposes that we shred protocols and statutory responsibilities vis a vis safeguarding that we have built up over decades. It proposes that it is more important to validate the inner identities of trans-identified males than it is to maintain safeguarding protocols built up to include the knowledge and understanding that a large proportion of male sex offenders also like to cross dress.

I know you think you're being a devil's advocate. You're not. You're defending increased risk to women and girls.

Any trans-identifying male who wishes to live life as close to womanhood as he can possibly get should immediately understand the vital need for safeguarding and should be more than happy to go through gate keeping procedures to establish that they are no risk to women and girls.

Any trans-identifying male who thinks that his glitter sparkle inner identity trumps the need for safeguarding and should override consent and boundaries SHOULD NEVER GET A GRC AT ALL LET ALONE GET ONE VIA SELF-ID, because he is demonstrating to you that he is a safeguarding risk. The inability to perceive the needs of others, the belief you have the right to override safeguarding of others - THIS PAINTS YOU AS A RISK.

Reading the comments under various articles about Hannah Mouncey - invariably there are comments of "you women wanted equality, this is equality." We want equal opportunity for women to play contact sports, not to insist on mixed sex contact sports obviously. And in the past women were not allowed to do so many sports because of arguments that primarily referred to their biology, not the social construct of "woman". I've heard so many people say women shouldn't box because of their biological fragility, not because it's not "ladylike". So even if people are secretly thinking it's "not ladylike", it is biology that has been used to make the case.

Girl Guides (bold mine) are already using self id.

mummybear701 wrote - "It takes a lot of paperwork and practical implications to change those so it can't be done on a whim."

What has a whim got to do with changing gender?

Genuine transsexual people will not change gender on a whim, but unfortunately, some non-transsexual men who want to abuse women and girls will also not change gender on a whim - they will change gender in a long-term, planned, calculated way. I think there is a naivity about how changing gender takes so much effort that people who are not genuinely transsexual will be too lazy to do it. This does not match evidence that some non-transsexual men who abuse women and girls, are perfectly capable and very willing to make extraordinary efforts to access their victims.

some non-transsexual men who want to abuse women and girls will also not change gender on a whim - they will change gender in a long-term, planned, calculated way. I think there is a naivity about how changing gender takes so much effort that people who are not genuinely transsexual will be too lazy to do it. This does not match evidence that some non-transsexual men who abuse women and girls, are perfectly capable and very willing to make extraordinary efforts to access their victims.

Not only that, but the option to identify as 'gender fluid' and therefore only identify as a woman on a part time basis enables such men to continue living their lives as men and only identifying as women on those specific occasions when they wish to abuse women or girls.

The point vesuvia is self id is here already, at least for more day to day scenarios. While there may be many who do so in good faith, the sort you describe can already change their name and gender in enough situations, such that proposed changes will make such little difference in practical terms. I assume you also mean transsexual women unless I've been using the wrong terminology all my life.

Also would it not be easier for a refuge or prison to refuse a man who has self id without taking any other steps to reassign his gender than someone with a GRC who looks and sounds like a woman?

You have obviously never canvassed. Why would I waste my time on someone who is never going to agree with me because they are so sure they are correct? When told "I always vote UKIP/Tory" I smile, move on and concentrate on finding people who are open minded and willing to listen to my arguments

MrsMcGarry

You don't seem to understand canvassing. It is going with people who have previously indicated they voted in a certain way, and you ring and ask if they intend to still vote that way, if not, why not. If they say they don't want to discuss it, move on, say thank you. Obviously this can be wrong and people move. Then you smile and say sorry for taking up your time.

self id is here already bit not in relation to the protected characteristic ‘sex’ in relation to the Equality Act. That is why queries have been raised regarding AWS. Currently self-identifying women without a GRC are legally male. This is not just a ‘symbolic’ change.

Have a look at this to see how much time and effort it takes to self id as a trans woman:

Pippa goes to work as a woman some days, and as a man on others.

Pippa Bunce
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.out-standing.org/heroes/2017-top-50-women/" target="_blank">www.out-standing.org/heroes/2017-top-50-women/
The FT awards for outstanding women in business
Head of Global Markets Technology Core Engineering Integrations Components
Credit Suisse
Pips took the conscious decision to be ‘out’ at work as gender fluid to embrace and advocate the importance of authenticity as well as to shine a light on the power and diversity of women in the workplace. Multiple aspects of our identity, including gender identity/expression, ethnicity, age, sexual orientation, disability and religion influence our experiences at work. Our sex or gender may be the same, but our identities, our successes and our struggles are different and it is for this reason why Pips is proud to be a female champion in business. She is a member of the European Women’s Network/IT Women’s Council and had many external publications relating to gender equality published. Additionally, she has been integral in providing reverse mentoring to management board members of the firm and is co-lead of the LGBT & Ally program at Credit Suisse where she places much importance on intersectionality and how the voices of all types of women and our allies need to be heard to drive forward gender equality – our differences make us stronger and diversity should be celebrated, not tolerated. Pips is also a regular panellist/speaker on gender equality, and often interviewed by external publications on the topic.

self id is here already

It is, but at the moment it can be challenged in many contexts because it's not law. Once it's written into law that's it, we're fucked.

mobile.twitter.com/PippaBunce

It doesn't do me any harm, if a someone identifies as a different gender why should I object?

Safe spaces argument is punishing trams gender women for the actions of abusive men. I also think actual predators are not stopped by a sign on the door saying ladies either.

There still hasnt been a single coherent argument to explain why people support self ID.

MrsMcGarry seems to want to abolish hierarchy by placing everyone into the same box, then working out who is at risk and giving them their own space. On the grounds of 'equality'.

But we already did that. Its why we have women only spaces and services. And women only services are not just about risk assessment or trauma therapy, they are also about consent.
removing those services then putting them back after X number of women have been harmed is not an option that should be supported in a Western democracy.

The fact is, offering a service to a group that needs it does not discriminate against anyone who does not belong to that group. they either do not need that service, or need their own equivelant service.
Its a fundamental principle of The Equality Act, and its a principle that has been erased by self ID.
That should concern anyone involved in politics.

What are the women only services/spaces?

what are the risks of a trams gender women needing access to this service/space?

Thanks for clarifying Flamingowings. I think it's such a dangerous argument because it's being used so widely by the TRAs, and lesbians are having to basically go underground to avoid these creeps.

mummybear701 wrote - "would it not be easier for a refuge or prison to refuse a man who has self id without taking any other steps to reassign his gender than someone with a GRC who looks and sounds like a woman?"

The proposed law change about self-identification is to make self-identification without a GRC as valid as gender reassignment with a government-gatekeepered GRC, which would seem to make a GRC pointless. If the proposed changes to self-identification become law, then there will be no way to distinguish between the two groups.

Safe spaces argument is punishing trams gender women for the actions of abusive men.

And that women need to be ok with being collateral damage to those abusive men in the name of 'not punishing ' TIMs.

How many women and girls are you ok with being harassed and assaulted or worse? Give it a number. Happy for that to include you? Your daughter? Your mum?

Come on girls, it's only an assault. Be kind.

"The proposed law change about self-identification is to make self-identification without a GRC as valid as gender reassignment with a government-gatekeepered GRC, which would seem to make a GRC pointless. If the proposed changes to self-identification become law, then there will be no way to distinguish between the two groups."

I think the government are being deliberately vague how this would work. I though even someone with a GRC could be refused working in a refuge etc. just for the triggering effect of any perceived masculinity. Its vital such places continue to have that discretion.

I take your point it could hurt some who would have been eligible for a GRC and could see their own protections watered down. Transsexuals Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton and others have made those very points.

LML83
What are the women only services/spaces?
Dont you know? I cant imagine never having used one.

• You either need smear tests or you need prostate exams.

• Some health therapy groups, for example for survivors of testicular cancer, are single sex. those are based on biology, not on how people feel.

-Domestic violence shelters are provided separately for men, women and trans people. Women pay a specific tas to fund them, men dont.

• Rape crisis counselling is provided separately for men, women and trans people.

• Hospital wards are usually single sex.

• Psychiatric wards are often single sex.

what are the risks of a trams gender women needing access to this service/space?
Its impossible to let self identifying trans people in and keep predatory men out.

Its not all about 'risk', its also about rights. TIMS do not need to access services that women need based on biology, such as smear tests.
Women have the right to boundaries and consent. Its a basic human right. why does a mans right to validation outweigh a woman's right to consent?

There still hasnt been a single coherent argument to explain why people support self ID.

There has not, has there?

There is only one coherent argument - that the rights of TIMs to enter women's spaces trumps the right of women to say no.

That's why no proponents of self-ID are prepared to make it openly. That's why they have to faff about with "don't be mean" (cos y'know, we're women and not supposed to go against our socialisation) or "there will be assaults anyway" (which is basically an argument against having any laws at all).