If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

ClareFlourish - thanks for being honest enough to come here and explicitly argue that the right of a trans-identified male to be excused gate keeping procedures is more important than the right of women and children to have safeguarding procedures in place.

It's better than the endless prevarications and dissimulations that we usually get.

As I've said before: transactivism is a men's rights movement. I'm glad you came here and openly confirmed that for us all. Thanks again.

Hi Clare :)

Please could you answer how you know/knew you were a woman? I said earlier (poss on another thread) that it's probably the one thing that might sway me, if someone could answer that question.

Why do you need to simply "swear and affirm" to get a GRC but get the approval of two doctors to have a termination? Seems a little unfair to me.

In discussing the proposed move to self ID, (and lets face it, there are very few places anywhere that biological women are allowed to discuss this at all because even discussing it is seen as offensive) many posters use the term TRA to describe the activist lobby ideology and political actions to separate what they are concerned about from the average trans person in the street. Whether you support some or all or none of the activist agenda is individual choice and no one else's business. However if someone chooses to wear a blood stained t shirt saying 'burn the terfs', attend marches with baseball bats to threaten non submissive women, insist that trans people cannot commit rape against women because of the power structure and that there is such a thing as a female penis that women must overcome their sexual orientation to accommodate, then whether they're happy with the perfectly polite term I'm using to describe the group that carries out those actions isn't something I'm going to lose sleep over.

Equally TIM is a phrase that allows polite conversation about matters that women need to be able to talk about without being forced to use language they do not agree with, that complies with Transwomen Are Women. A biological male remains a biological male however he chooses to identify, and women cannot raise the serious implications for biological females in self ID if their language has been policed, controlled and removed from them before they start.

I do not have the emotional strength to discuss those reasons again today, but please feel free to look back.

Hi flamingowings. I've just been RTFT and you have done an amazing job on it. Big ry thank you.

Why should a child or a young girl be expected to tolerate a penis in what was previously a "safe space" for them to suit the personal preference of the owner of that penis?

Nah you were great.

I think some people think you get to choose your counsellor while sipping lavender tea and flicking through the Big Penguin Book of Counsellors. Having that image of you getting in someone's car on a beach is stupendous. Thank you for sharing it - it must not be easy to do so.

Thanks for braving the chilly water, Clare! Generally, people here are happy to talk respectfully to others, as long as they are allowed to discuss difference.

People here are very supportive of trans rights, as long as they do not impinge on women's rights. I appreciate (as much as I can) that it was difficult for you to transition, and appreciate your bravery in making such an irreversible decision.

What do you think of Alex? I think Alex is gorgeous. I would love to be friends with them, they sound good fun. However, Alex says they are 'widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman'. They have had no surgery and no hormones. I feel they are widening the bandwidth of being Male. Should Alex be on an all women shortlist, or get a job reserved for women?

What do you think?

Clare it would be great if you could come back, as you can see quite a few of us are wanting to discuss and as I said I'd even be prepared to have myviewpoint changed, it's been unfortunate so far that people like yourself have come on specifically to post their view but seem unwilling to enter into PARD about it. As you've put yourself 'out there' on the www I'm hoping that means you are open to debate.

How did you know you were a woman? How can I know I'm not a man? How do I know my current 'fact' that I am a woman is correct?

What I find difficult is that on the one hand transwomen appear to be advocating doing away with gender stereotypes altogether - hurrah!

But then seem to be insisting that showing a preference for a particular gender stereotype (I paint my nails therefore: I am a woman) means that in fact an individual is that gender (regardless of biology) thus reinforcing that stereotype?

It seems contradictory.

Clare -
You say English law says your a woman, and that is "weird", then go on to say you transitioned male to female through the GRC process. You have not presented as male since. I'm not clear when English law defined you as a woman, was it before or after transition (and I'm not being snide, just trying to understand).

You give historic examples of people who have dressed etc as opposite to their biological sex. People do that, always have and it makes no difference to anyone.
It is not comparable to people asking for laws and structures of organisations to change; for them to literally go from male to female simply based on how they feel. That has never happened in human history. It is dangerous. I don't mean trans people are dangerous but that the precedent is.

The swearing/ affirming thing. What happens if someone changes their mind and reverts to their biological sex. Will they go to prison, be fined, be put in the stocks?? Laws have to enforceable. It's a nonsensical proposal.

Prisons - a high percentage of men in prison who transition have been convicted of sex offences. That is not because people who are trans are sex offenders. It is because people who are abusers will use whatever means they can to groom, manipulate and harm others. There are not vast numbers of those people and there is no need for some kind of "moral panic" but it has happened and will happen again.
My particular beef with the prison issue is the absolute silence in respect of the women in those prisons. It looks very much like women's needs are being sidelined because the men have spoken. People who speak out against it are told to keep quiet, that it should not be debated. Really!! because men's needs come first??!!!

There are qualities or characteristics in one sex and not the other. They are biological. Women are different to men. We menstruate, we need sanitary protection to deal with it, some of us have babies and need to take time off work etc. I could go on but am beginning to bore myself!
Men on the whole are physically stronger than women. Men do not bleed, leak milk, get pregnant, they can have a slash against a wall without difficulty. In some parts of the world girls have to go outside their village to go to the toilet and are liable to rape. That is because of their biology. If we loose sight of that it will not be long before the gains we have made will be lost and those women who still die in childbirth etc will never catch up.

I'm not conservative. I'm a member of the labour party. I'm not gender anything. I'm a woman.

Thank you for sharing your POV, Clare, and please do stick around.

I don't know why I was invited onto Mumsnet as I have never been a parent, but I quite like it. AIBU? asks someone, and people in a friendly reassuring manner reply YANBU.

'Friendly' and 'reassuring'? AIBU? WTF?

The jokes are great. And then there are a small number of threads where people share at great length on the Transgender Threat. They talk of toilets, prisons, changing rooms, predatory males.

I am really starting to get tired of the argument that we're saying all transgender people are rapists.

Some men are rapists. 98% of sexual offences are committed by men. Not all men are like that, but a significant number of them are, enough to make sex segregation necessary in places where women are vulnerable (and yes, those places include toilets, prisons, changing rooms).

The evidence suggests that trans-identified men continue to comment violent crime at the same rate, and even if it isn't at the same rate, it's certainly significantly higher than the rate at which women offend. Unbiased research to clarify the rate would be great, but the TRAs certainly aren't calling for it.

The language is unfriendly, here, unlike most of Mumsnet. "TIMs" or "TRAs" say people. Most of society will say "trans women". "Trans-identified males" is unfriendly.

And this is another problem, calling for women to be friendly, to be kind, to completely cede to the other side's demands in the language they use, while the other side of the argument can get away with threats of rape and violence. Have you seen some of the shit TRAs get up to? Do you condone the attack on Maria MacLachlan at Speaker's corner? Or the ones who armed themselves with baseball bats at a woman's march? Or the ones who cover their faces to protest peaceful meetings of A Woman's Place, forcing women to meet in secret? I'm going to the London one and I'm fucking terrified. Genuinely scared out of my mind. Still going, because I'm angry now. These are the TRAs that people are talking about when they use that phrase, not the quieter ones who just want to live their life and work towards improving trans rights.

And here's the thing: women like us are the only ones who ever get ticked off for being unfriendly. And you know why? Because we're the reasonable ones. We're the ones who want to compromise, to listen to the other side and figure out a way to solve the problem in a way that benefits everyone without trampling on another group's rights. See how far you'd get telling TRAs on Twitter that maybe they should stop threatening to rape TERFs.

Stick around: you might find we're friendlier than you first thought.

It need not mean that prisoners will be placed where they are a danger to women, on their own say-so. Predatory males might pretend to be trans now, but that is not the fault of genuine trans people, and there are easier ways to get at women. I object to prisoners and predatory males being used in argument against recognition of ordinary, law abiding and peaceful trans women who just want to live quietly.

That's EXACTLY what it will mean. And, look, I know you probably won't want to hear this, but it's not even a case of predatory males pretending to be trans. Some predatory males will BE trans. Some 50% of the trans-identified men in prison are sex offenders. They can't all be faking, and if they are that's pretty worrying in itself.

The whole point about self-ID is that it removes ALL gatekeeping. No dysphoria diagnosis needed, and no requirement to live life as a woman: literally nothing will be needed except a man's say so. And then they can access women's facilities at their leisure.

Please don't dismiss women's genuine fears like this, and don't underestimate the lengths predators will go to to access women and girls, or how willing other men are to stand back and let them. Look at the recent scandals that have emerged over the last couple of years. If self-ID goes through, we'll be looking at another one.

I understand and accept there are ways in which the current system could be improved. It's absolutely shit that you had to pay for a letter from a psychiatrist, and isn't the waiting period something like five years, which is clearly ridiculous. There's certainly grounds for claiming that the GRC process needs to be overhauled and improved, but self-ID and the total removal of gatekeeping isn't the way.

And finally, I have my suspicions that we may be arguing at cross-purposes here and that if you really looked more closely into the wider implications of self-ID and trans-ideology as it currently stands that you would be fucking horrified. And don't kid yourself that the TRAs have the best interests of transexuals at heart. If I may, could I point you in the direction of Miranda Yardley and Kristina Harrison on Twitter?

twitter.com/TerrorizerMir
twitter.com/KJ_Harrison
and
mirandayardley.com/en/

I don't understand how a MiT can call themselves a gender critical feminist woman.

To be able to call themselves 'woman', a man needs a gendered definition of 'women' and not the real definition. Without gender surely we remain with biology - a man being male and a woman being female?

As pp said - selfID removes the gatekeeper. Not secure enough for me.

Tinycitrus wrote - "transwomen appear to be advocating doing away with gender stereotypes altogether."

Can you give examples of transgender-identifying males advocating doing away with gender stereotypes?

TIM, Transgender Identified Male, is an accurate representation of males who self-ID as women.
Trans Identified Males are a subset of males, not females, so it would be inappropriate to call them trans women. Women are adult human females.
Women are taught all our lives to lie for men, to appease men. Most of us reach an age where we say ENOUGH. We will not set ourselves on fire to keep others warm.

I do use "transwoman" but I do think "TIM" is more accurate because only males can be transwomen, so all transwomen are males.

Though what with the way things are going, I guess it's not long before women start "identifying" as transwomen

Nope

Some of the stuff I’ve read on Twitter appears to advocate gender self identification as a sort of liberation from the confines of stereotypes -so the whole woman/man/ no gender/werekin depending on how on you feel that day. Adopting stereotypes but subverting them etc. Like Jack Monroe.

I am irritated that in many circles, my identity is now a subset and trans identity is the set. India Willoughby "I AM A WOMAN" is effectively saying "you are a cis woman".

Clare, can you see how that would be upsetting for those of us who are, and always have been, women?

Yep - it takes years and a whole lot of commitment and cash to become British. You definitely can't self ID!!