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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:20

You think it's going to be hard for you to access life now? You have no idea how much the coward politicians and policy makers have already restricted my life. I am FUCKING SCARED! Not just of TRAs of professionals who only give a shit about the buck in their own pocket, sitting back letting this happen!

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:23

Every professional in public service allowed democracy to fall, from the GP who now asks patients their gender identity to the Teacher that gaslights their students.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 16:23

'People like me have whisper voices, you have loud voices. '

I hear your whisper loud and clear. Keep talking. This is just the usual pile on by anonymous shithouses aimed at putting new people in their place. NEVER LET OTHER PEOPLE TELL YOU WHAT YOUR PLACE IS.

We keep going. We keep discussing, debating. We build. Stay on topic, don't let people put you off. xx

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:24

You pay the unions. We pay public servants.

averylongtimeago · 15/02/2018 16:26

Oh dear, does this really have to descend into a bun fight?
Jennifer, on this issue our individual politics are not the point.
Calling people names because you don't agree with what they say or because they wander off topic is not on.

We have a real opportunity here to work together to challenge this TRA threat, so let's get on with it.

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 15/02/2018 16:28

Every woman's voice is important on here. No one 'owns' threads. There are many women on the right, centre, nowhere and left who have contributed massively to this ground-swell of women's voices finally being heard.

Us leftie women have noticed The Guardian and JC throwing women under the bus. In this and other ways. We know they don't have our backs. We have also noticed the generally hated and vilified right wing papers and people supporting women on this. We aren't stupid, we know they have an agenda too.

What is needed is women, all women, cooperating to further women's rights. Not some shambolic Judean People's Front. This is much more important than party politics.

FWIW:

Sex is not gender.
All people have rights; those of men should not come at the expense of women.
Sex-based protections and exceptions are not bigotry and hatred; male violence is.

QuentinSummers · 15/02/2018 16:29

This is just the usual pile on by anonymous shithouses aimed at putting new people in their place

This is an example of why people are offended.
No it isn't a pile on.

Women with concerns on here come from all walks of life and all political backgrounds.

We supported you and now it's clear that if we aren't corbynistas we can fuck off

It's really disappointing and alienating.

You've raised an awful lot of money from women, if you don't think you can be a figurehead for what you are doing find someone who can be and get them to post. Don't come on here and sound off about us.

I've posted on this board for a long time and can't remember someone being so rude when they weren't deliberately trolling.

Really. Grow up.

AttillaThePun · 15/02/2018 16:30

I think the thing to focus on really tightly with the crowdfunded money is the legal challenge to AWS. At least until we get a definitive answer.

Since AWS are something that's a specific time-limited exception (till 2030 I believe?) to the Equality Act then surely they should be kept in line with current laws. i.e. nobody without a birth certificate that says 'female', regardless of how that was procured.

It may be that Labour will choose to scrap AWS rather than have to comply with the law, I don't know. But I think we need to see how that pans out first. (And then, if our view is upheld on the legality of self-ID on AWS, hit the Lib Dems/Greens/whoever else with it, because they take self-ID as sufficient too.)

I think Red's proposals are a really good starting point for fighting self-ID more generally, but shouldn't we pause and see how our first challenge pans out? (After all, it could get expensive, you might not have any money left to do other things with by the end of it.)

ShotsFired · 15/02/2018 16:30

lol I don't take any shit and that's never going to change. sorry.

That hoary old chestnut is always rolled out by people who have no coherent argument to make; so they can fall back on insults and abuse and think they look all big and bad and cool.

I hate to break it to you....

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 16:32

'This point was raised by a MNer who is a solicitor one one of the crowdfunding threads. My only concern is that rather than abandon self ID Labour will abandon AWS which would certainly be a popular move in some male quarters.'

When women start getting somewhere, the patriarchy pushes back. I think we are feeling a pushback right now? If not men on all women shortlists... then NO all women shortlists. It's tied in with the UTTER DENIAL of how sex is the basis of our oppression.

There is a compartmentalisation of issues. the left claims to care deeply about the MeToo tsunami of grief. yet also cares enough about trans issues to put paedophiles in women's prisons? There is a dangerous disconnect: where women's boundaries are concurrently encouraged and discouraged.

OP posts:
Patodp · 15/02/2018 16:33

I don't blame JJ for flipping out, I mean certain people on this thread have been unbelievably rude.

SteelyPip · 15/02/2018 16:37

"You've raised an awful lot of money from women, if you don't think you can be a figurehead for what you are doing find someone who can be and get them to post. Don't come on here and sound off about us.

I've posted on this board for a long time and can't remember someone being so rude when they weren't deliberately trolling.

Really. Grow up."

This - with bells on ^

Now can we go back to reasoned discussion, where people feel safe to disagree and empowered by the process.

Patodp · 15/02/2018 16:38

I'm not sure the Labour party would get away with abandoning AWS altogether, wouldn't that misogyny be a bit too blatant?
At the moment they can disguise all their woman-hating in progressiveness but they would get too much negative attention from scrapping aws over this.

TheUterati · 15/02/2018 16:39

This is just the usual pile on by anonymous shithouses aimed at putting new people in their place

New people are always welcome. New people who pitch up, are arrogant, rude, insult individual posters, whilst simultaneously demanding that we do the creative and constructive thinking for them tend to get their arses handed to them on a plate. You are no different, and that you expect different treatment and for us all to fall into line is testament to your arrogance. Perhaps if you had done some research into MN< how it works, what the spread of opinion on trans issues here is (as I have already suggested you should have done - this should be a pretty standard first step before engaging, no matter who it is you are engaging with), you would have worked this out.

Whether how you are coming across reflects your true intentions or not is irrelevant - enough women here have explained to you how you are coming across. If you want this to work, you need to listen to this and re-evaluate.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 16:40

'I think the thing to focus on really tightly with the crowdfunded money is the legal challenge to AWS. At least until we get a definitive answer. '

I don't agree... I think more need to happen in the political sphere... in terms of people putting the pressure on in their local parties, writing to MPs etc... everything helps, even this! sharing articles etc. I mean, I don't know about the legal process, they're only just making a start now. I have NO concept of a timeline on this... will share when I do.

'Since AWS are something that's a specific time-limited exception (till 2030 I believe?) to the Equality Act then surely they should be kept in line with current laws. i.e. nobody without a birth certificate that says 'female', regardless of how that was procured.;

Wow did not know they were time limited.

'It may be that Labour will choose to scrap AWS rather than have to comply with the law, I don't know. But I think we need to see how that pans out first. (And then, if our view is upheld on the legality of self-ID on AWS, hit the Lib Dems/Greens/whoever else with it, because they take self-ID as sufficient too.)'

IF our position is upheld in law then it gets interesting, as regards other parties.

'I think Red's proposals are a really good starting point for fighting self-ID more generally, but shouldn't we pause and see how our first challenge pans out? (After all, it could get expensive, you might not have any money left to do other things with by the end of it.)'

You make a good point about the money. We could really do with ideas of how to spend what's left, to put to donors. A load of options for them... shd it go to a Woman's Place, or on some kind of research... or getting a cross-party umbrella group launched. I need people to do more work, I can't do everything.

This is up to you guys to sort... I can't keep on top of my emails, and the kids' laundry let alone anything else!

OP posts:
averylongtimeago · 15/02/2018 16:41

For what it's worth, I think trans people should have the same rights as everyone else. But their rights are not more important than any other group.
A gender neutral toilet is ok, as long as there are male and female ones as well.
Trans hcp fine, as long as when a woman requests a woman she gets one.
Transing of children is child abuse, unhappy teens should have help and counselling not drugs and surgery.
If a person is unhappy with their gender then they should be able to live how they wish, but not "become" the other sex and push their way into single sex areas, at the expense of those born into that sex.

I long for the day when Steph can wear a pink sparkly top and make up, practise his knitting and not have to hide his feelings beneath a "masculine" exterior. Or when Steph can work in IT or construction in big boots and a hard hat and no one asks what her husband thinks or asks her to "make the tea there's a love".

I am not the most eloquent of posters, but these are my views and those of my family and friends that I have been able to discuss this with.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:43

Are you happy to take that gender neutral toilet away from people like me? That's what's happening.

OvaHere · 15/02/2018 16:43

I think Red's proposals are a really good starting point for fighting self-ID more generally, but shouldn't we pause and see how our first challenge pans out? (After all, it could get expensive, you might not have any money left to do other things with by the end of it.)

Agreed. Red's proposals are good but it could easily take the crowdfunder money and some to tackle AWS.

In the meantime getting behind WPUK for the other stuff could be really effective as they have a solid grounding not based on any tribal politics.

It might not be the best idea to try and thrash out things re the AWS case directly on this board given how this thread is going.

Sometimes things are better face to face so if someone felt they could be a MN rep as part of the AWS challenge a real life working group whether in person or via Skype would limit the in-fighting. That MNer could then feed back issues and updates for discussion.

averylongtimeago · 15/02/2018 16:45

Order, did you mean me? I said a gender neutral toilet was fine, as long as there were still male and female ones. HTH

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:45

Taking over disabled toilets. They are already taken over by baby changing units. You d realise disabled toilets are not just for those in a wheelchair. Sometimes people can't hold their bowel and bladder and you want to fill our toilets with fetishists so you are free of them like the men did to you?

Disabled people crawled on the ground for their rights.

Patodp · 15/02/2018 16:46

No one is a fan of disabled loos being used for Transgender it's appalling how that's even considered.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 16:46

I think the freedom of speech/freedom of assembly is something that stirs the blood of every politician and every journalist of every mainstream persuasion.

We need to be able to openly discuss, present evidence, and use logic to get to the best way forward.

The 'climate of fear' unites everyone.

I wonder, if we can't get politicians to stick their necks out and say that transwomen are male, then maybe we could have a halfway point of asking them:

Even if you don't agree with what some of the views of the participants, do you think people should be able to peacefully gather to discuss laws that affect them without sabotage, harassment or fear of violence in an open democracy?

And see whether we can get statements from them supporting at least the right to have a position.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 16:47

'I long for the day when Steph can wear a pink sparkly top and make up, practise his knitting and not have to hide his feelings beneath a "masculine" exterior. Or when Steph can work in IT or construction in big boots and a hard hat and no one asks what her husband thinks or asks her to "make the tea there's a love".'

EXACTLY THIS. Let's abolish gender not codify it. God knows if the trans agenda had been around in the 70s I'd have been medicalised... was convinced I was a boy for years.

I do think that outlawing gender is the only way to get through this to the benefit of all... LITERALLY making it illegal to have 'school girls clothes and school boys clothes' extend this to all workplaces etc gender neutral lives alongside sex-based protections. politicians and media are SO short sighted though, it's painful.

OP posts:
TheUterati · 15/02/2018 16:47

JJ - you are NOT doing everything. There is a lot of campaigning and work that has been going on to date.

A good place to start with finding out what is going on and where your own contribution can fit, and perhaps plug the gap, is to get in touch with WPUK, Fair Play and Mayday 4 Women.
I think it is vital that you ascertain this.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2018 16:49

I don't agree... I think more need to happen in the political sphere... in terms of people putting the pressure on in their local parties, writing to MPs etc... everything helps, even this! sharing articles etc. I mean, I don't know about the legal process, they're only just making a start now. I have NO concept of a timeline on this... will share when I do.

Then dont talk about pile ons!

Either you want a cross party approach or you don't.

Do you have people outside your CLP locally to bounce off? If you are talking about a grass roots approach then thats where you start. It should help you within your CLP too.

Honestly, you are lashing out and making assumptions which contain a fuck ton of prejudice. Personally I think this is why political parties across the board are failing the public. Every party has an authoritarian structure atm in which the 'you are either with us or against us' mentality dominates.

Even if someone disagrees with you, look for the value in what they say.