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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 15/02/2018 15:48

Yep. I agree a cross party coalition is needed, I don't know how to do that or how it would work.

Try talking to people with different political views better. They will come out of the woodwork and engage. The issue is too big to be tribal about it. Focus on a common agenda. I'm sure it will happen. The groundswell is happening.

Umbrella organisation needed.

Possibly. Though maybe not on such a big issue. It would be preferable, but not necessarily the be all imo.

Mumsnet is the perfect place to start it. You have a broad range of views here... I don't know how it would work. You could come up with something that's bigger than left/right and then all the separate groups cd affiliate?

Please do not forget that Mumsnet, is great for activism without necessarily having formal organisation. Do not underestimate its value and its power.

Individual activism is under valued.

What you don't see is who is reading and what their status is. There are a million individual battles and tasks here, which range from merely telling a friend to taking on the Labour party.

I've seen its power on other issues. MN is not any of the stereotypes it has.

You have already got a taste of it on this. I'm confident that lots more is happening which you don't know about and can't see. You haven't seen anything yet, if my gut feeling is right.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 15:54

Cos I don't care what people think of me and I call out bullshit when I see it.

What part of 'I don't give a FUCK what you think' are you not getting here? Go away Lazy Daisy you're not relevant. These idiotic posts are ruining the discussion.

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RedToothBrush · 15/02/2018 15:56

I can't get cross party support! I can't even get support in Labour! Half the people in my OWN party hate me and want me expelled. I'm blacklisted, as are other crowdfunder women. Not one senior politician or union rep has stood up for us publicly. You cannot imagine the abuse I have had IN MY OWN CIRCLES and in my OWN CLP. My name is mud and my stock is low.

Jennifer, look after yourself. I've seen it. I don't envy it. But given your posts here, I can't help but think that your manner, as much as your message is the problem. That's not to say, don't be a tough nut telling it how it is, but don't alienate people when you do it!

Seriously, you've attacked people who support you. Why will people stick their heads up to help you, when you are getting abuse, if you kick them in the teeth too?

Take a step backward and go rational and channel the fire.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 15:56

Jennifer try to tune out the posts that are being overly direct in a way people wouldn't be to your face.

Lets keep this thing moving forward

DaisyDrip · 15/02/2018 15:57

Sorry JJ You have no authority here, I shall post as much or as little as I like. Your opinion of me is less than me to the dust on my shoe.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2018 15:58

Go away Lazy Daisy you're not relevant

She is relevant. Every women is relevant.

Miss that, and you miss the point.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 15:59

'Try talking to people with different political views better. They will come out of the woodwork and engage. The issue is too big to be tribal about it. Focus on a common agenda. I'm sure it will happen. The groundswell is happening.'

OK you need to understand that I am NOT the leader of this and it is neither my responsibility nor in my capability. It is my face on the crowdfunder and me rattling the tin. That's it. The people leading it are the many donors who contributed. The crowdfunder was never expected to go over 100 let alone 23,000. It was a little protest!

Political activism comes from the grassroots up. Democracry comes from the grassroots up. If enough of us individuals keep pushing up, we will make the connections.

Do not rely on me to lead ANYTHING.

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LangCleg · 15/02/2018 16:00

Jen, Jen, Jen

Step. Away. From. The. Keyboard.

I know how tough this has been on you. I know what you've already lost and what else you're still prepared to risk.

But FWR is FWR. It's a busy community with a wide variety of contributors and threads often meander. Spend some time here contributing and understand how it works, what the etiquette is, the culture of FWR.

You can't make demands of a thread. A thread is just a thread.

Take a break.

Come back when you can stop flying off the handle. We'll still be here. We might even have moved on with a concrete set of proposals.

DaisyDrip · 15/02/2018 16:00

Thank you RedToothBrush. It seems only some woman are relevant and this is my whole argument and why I am (now) so angry rather than just being hurt.

UpstartCrow · 15/02/2018 16:02

I think we need to go back to basics.

The Equality Act has been re written so that a man has the protected characteristic of transgender as soon as he goes to his GP and makes the announcement that he intends to change sex,
He does not have to make any other change.

That should not give him the legal status of female or woman.

The Equality Act needs to be amended to how it was before. People who do not share a protected characteristic cannot claim they are discriminated against by being excluded from an adjustment.

And that should include biological men being excluded from AWS and other adjustments for women.

Cascade220 · 15/02/2018 16:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GuardianLions · 15/02/2018 16:04

I am with you Upstart

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 16:08

'The Equality Act needs to be amended to how it was before. People who do not share a protected characteristic cannot claim they are discriminated against by being excluded from an adjustment.'

It hasn't been changed yet, although organisations such as Labour are acting as if it has. As are Topshop, Primark, anyone else who welcomes men into women's spaces.

The good news is that our lawyers think the case is arguable that allowing people who are legally male on all-women-shortlists is misuse of the Equalities Act 2010 Exemptions. If the Labour party lets one man on an aws then it discriminates against ALL men who it doesn't.

What's ironic is that it is women who are being attacked for wanting to uphold the law on our sex-based exemptions.

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:08

I feel disappointed in those with qualifications and positions of power and authority.

We are on the edge of Tyranny because of Keyboard warriors and a few pockets like the gangs last night at the WPUK event and outside a London court today.

Howyoualldoworkme · 15/02/2018 16:09

So, the people leading it are the people who contributed?
But apparently if they're not the "right sort" of woman they're less than the dust on your shoe? And not relevant?

Your'e coming across nearly as bad as the TRAs. I almost, almost hope you are suffering from stress because if this is truly the contemptuous and "othering" way you view women not of your viewpoint, it's very worrying.

Good luck with your campaign if you're alienating the very people you need to get the word out in circles that you might not have access to.

JenniferJames · 15/02/2018 16:12

'Come back when you can stop flying off the handle.'

lol I don't take any shit and that's never going to change. sorry.

OP posts:
OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OvaHere · 15/02/2018 16:12

The good news is that our lawyers think the case is arguable that allowing people who are legally male on all-women-shortlists is misuse of the Equalities Act 2010 Exemptions. If the Labour party lets one man on an aws then it discriminates against ALL men who it doesn't.

This point was raised by a MNer who is a solicitor one one of the crowdfunding threads. My only concern is that rather than abandon self ID Labour will abandon AWS which would certainly be a popular move in some male quarters.

OrderOnline · 15/02/2018 16:15

I am also disappointed that so many politicians are cowards. They are scared of the pockets of masked people banging pans and Owen Jones. Hmm

DaisyDrip · 15/02/2018 16:16

OrderOnline By being here you have a voice that is no softer than any other woman here. We all do what we can often dictated by our lives/lifestyle/circumstances. There are woman here who have taught me so, so much and I'm eternally grateful to them.

Don't be disheartened, I'm sure this movement and campaign can only grow and grow and then we all, woman of all kinds will see our voices are important and must and will be listened too.

Cascade220 · 15/02/2018 16:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SteelyPip · 15/02/2018 16:18

I really want to help: to agitate, to be active, donate time and money - but I can't do this under the banner that JJ is waving. If I am going to be insulted, patronised or disregarded I can go almost anywhere else to experience that. I come onto these boards because so far I've gained, learned, peaked and begun to fight back.

Jennifer, I could learn a lot from your knowledge, fire and experience and I want to support you. It's simply the way you're slamming into threads demanding and belittling... is just divisive and repugnant.

UpstartCrow · 15/02/2018 16:18

If the Labour party lets one man on an aws then it discriminates against ALL men who it doesn't

It discriminates against the women who were pushed out to make way for the man.
Biological men cannot be given rights taken away from women.

But the Equality Act does now protect mens identity as women from the first GP visit. Its self ID by the back door, and its very underhanded.

Howyoualldoworkme · 15/02/2018 16:20

Thank you SpartacusAutisticus

That's exactly the vibe I was getting too. Worrying and disappointing