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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Team Smash The Patriarchy needs Mumsnet input/representation

605 replies

JenniferJames · 14/02/2018 18:13

We are hoping to have someone familiar with Mumsnet liaising with you on what the majority feeling is here and getting a list of your priorities for the outcome of GRA changes. The crowdfunder women are all Labour women, so any representations organised by us will take place within the confines of the Labour party.

However as this affects all women and is such a cross-party issue, we hope that people will lobby within their own parties, or their own factions within their own parties... and we can compare notes!

This is part of a piece on self-id from Bella Caledonia, it represents a good starting point for debate... bear in mind the debate has to end up with solutions and it's up to us to work that out together.

This is early days and we are all building this movement organically... let's see where it takes us.

Will check back and keep you posted Mighty Mumsnet.

Jennifer xx

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CONSULTATION RESPONSES
So how do we address all of this?
Below I will outline my suggestions for consultation responses and I contend that these are all absolutely necessary if we are to protect women and girls. Not one of these suggestions threatens trans rights. Equal does not mean identical. Trans women are not female. Trans people have their rights to live as they wish, love who they wish, and have the same legal protections as everyone else. And they should have the spaces and services they need; everyone supports that.
None of this requires women and girls to lose our rights.
Our rights are only threatened because trans activists don’t want any distinction made between trans women and women. But we are not the same and pretending otherwise erases the female sex class, preventing us from addressing our sex based oppression, and what could possibly be a more heinous act of misogyny than that? Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies.
So firstly I suggest we call on the government to establish the following principles as an underpinning to any legislation affecting women and girls:
• Females suffer exploitation, discrimination, injustice, oppression and male violence due to their reproductive sex. And as such, female bodies have a political significance that they need to be able to talk about, organise around and address as a distinct reproductive class of people.
• Females deserve equality, to participate in society, to be safe, and to have their welfare valued. The government should monitor and address females as a sex class on all of these measures, however ‘woman’ is defined in legislation.
• Trans equality should be based on trans as a characteristic, and not on erasing the female sex as a characteristic.
• Females are not to blame for the climate of male violence they live in or for the effects. Victim blaming is never acceptable, and legislation should reflect this.
• Females should be able to set their own boundaries around their own bodies; understanding that anything less is in direct contravention of the principle of consent.
• Females should not be forced to adopt trans ideology/biological essentialism/genderism. There can be no assumption that women as a group identify as the feminine gender that is coercively imposed on them to subjugate them; and women who do not subscribe to genderism and instead contend that for them a woman is simply an adult female, must be able to assert this (that’d be most of us).
• The government should not work with any LGBT/Trans organisation that deems exclusive same sex attraction as inherently objectionable.
In order to work with the above principles, the government should identify and pursue the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments to the Equality Act before making any changes to the GRA.
In addition, before moving to a system of self ID the government should do the following:
• Carry out Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs) on how the proposed changes to the GRA will potentially affect the equality, participation, safety and welfare of women and girls, understanding that trans inclusion has already had an unmeasured impact.
• Inform and consult with women on sex segregation and male bodied trans inclusion to properly gauge how to protect women and girls on the aforementioned measures. Most women don’t realise what is already happening, and a recent Panelbase poll found that women in Scotland are 3:1 against male bodied trans people having access to female only spaces.
• Draw up the necessary Scotland specific exemptions/amendments in response to these assessments and consultations, in order to ensure women and girls are protected, and secure these with the UK government before moving forward with self ID. FAILURE TO DO THIS IS ABANDONING WOMEN AND GIRLS ENTIRELY.
• Draw up guidelines on how to implement Equality Act exemptions, so businesses and providers can do so without fear of legal action.
• Be aware that the Engender led women’s organisations’ joint statement saying that these changes posed no threat to women’s equality, was released without any of these organisations consulting their members regarding the GRA beforehand, and indeed without conducting and concluding their own research on how these changes will specifically impact on women’s equality. Not only this, they have not consulted with women at all despite being asked to do so and choosing to speak for us, and nor have they carried out any other work in order to gauge how women and girls are already self-excluding/are otherwise affected. Furthermore, when approached by victims in relation to this proposed legislation, they refused to engage with their concerns. I know – I am one of them. Therefore we should call on the government to understand that these organisations cannot possibly represent women in this, and since they came to their position before carrying out the work necessary to come to said position, the government should assess any cited research/data itself, rather than rely on the interpretation of women’s organisations.
Lastly, there are a few additional suggestions for steps the government should take in relation to other parts of their proposals:
• Carry out its own research on dysphoria in young people and on desistance, not least because – as the NHS notes – studies show that most children diagnosed as transgender grow out of it, with all of the studies undertaken on this showing anywhere from a 63% to 88% desistance rate. Within this the government should properly research suicidality; follow up interviews usually halve the percentage for suicide in studies, and controls are used to filter out other factors so results can be instructive as to the causes. The study referenced in the consultation was neither followed up nor controlled. The government also needs to be clear on how transition affects mental health, including for the majority who desist, and who – due to affirmation – didn’t receive the right support when they needed it. Only then can the government assess the potential impact of reducing the age limit for a GRC.
• Unless the government wants to assert that a woman is someone who identifies with being submissive, and a man is someone who identifies with male supremacy, they should not introduce a third legal gender. It is reactionary in the extreme to uphold the idea that women and men identify as/actually are the gender imposed on them, and this should not be assigned to people as part of any legislation, and providing trans services does not necessitate this either.
• Immediately move to introduce misogyny as a hate crime. Women are being targeted for violence and abuse at unprecedented levels, just for being women. We are even becoming targets of hate for talking about the meaning of our bodies, and naming male violence. We are an oppressed and marginalised group and deserve the same protections all other such groups have.
The Scottish government consultation has been written with a very clear bias, and the fact they haven’t carried out a single EQIA regarding how these proposals could potentially impact on the equality of women and girls is simply indefensible. Surely it’s in no-one’s interests that the government moves forward with legislation without understanding how to protect the largest marginalised group in our society. So let’s make sure that happens.

OP posts:
Mayday01 · 14/02/2018 21:02

@DonkeySkin. Another brilliant poster.
Barracker something as well.
Thanks for this Jennifer Flowers

UpstartCrow · 14/02/2018 21:04

Thank you for what you are doing, Jennifer.
I would add to your list;

  • The Equality Act needs to be repaired to restore women's rights.
  • All needs, rights, services and spaces based on biological sex need to be preserved.
  • Trans people can use a third, gender neutral service and/or space, along with men and women who feel comfortable sharing with them, (where a space or service is not specifically for trans people.)
  • There is no way to include TIMS's into women's spaces and services and also exclude predatory men posing as trans.
  • There is no way to include TIMs and also include women from some religions and races, women with PTSD, or women who do not consent to sharing with a biological male.
Women cannot legally be excluded from womens spaces and services in the name of 'equality'.
Writersblock2 · 14/02/2018 21:14

@DaisyDrip - thanks. The opening post alone has me rolling my eyes. I’ll have a read through tonight.

thebewilderness · 14/02/2018 21:16

The position that trans identified males have bee through a process and trauma is absurd on its face from a man who thinks them signing a piece of paper should be enough of a "process" for women to be displaced.

Cerealcomplainer · 14/02/2018 21:17

Jennifer I am not a Labour supporter. I have contributed to your campaign and am proud to have done so. Thank you for doing this. I get a little perplexed when I see political point scoring about this - we need a consensus around this single issue otherwise we won’t get anywhere.
Bit rambly but I suppose I am saying I am someone who might feel insulted about your Mumsnet Tory comment but I am still 100 percent behind you.

KatherinaMinola · 14/02/2018 21:23

What was said on Twitter, please? Can someone recap?

LassWiADelicateAir · 14/02/2018 21:24

Is ^Team Smash the Patriarchy" a jokey thread title or do you intend campaigning under that strapline?

WiseOldHag · 14/02/2018 21:30

Is ^Team Smash the Patriarchy" a jokey thread title or do you intend campaigning under that strapline?

This. Sounds like a pub quiz team.

Like 'Jihadi John' - the name makes light of what is a dreadful situation.

EmyRoo · 14/02/2018 21:30

I am not a Labour voter, I cannot get behind Corbyn.

I donated to the crowdfunder as I was horrified that initiatives for women were under threat; also that you received such flak for organising from the Labour Party itself.

I wish you well, but the Mumsnet Tories post and all the weirdness has left a sour taste with me.

Melamin · 14/02/2018 21:36

Absolutely agree with pp that this is

a. A cross party matter that needs cross party support.

b. The EA needs teeth.

Cismyfatarse1 · 14/02/2018 21:38

Also not a member of the Labour Party or Labour voter. Floating LibDem / Conservative but in Scotland so mostly just vote against the SNP.

Also donated and got a bit worried but happy to see lots of voices being listened to.

Happy to help online but my remote location makes meeting up difficult.

birdsdestiny · 14/02/2018 21:46

The only time lately I have felt that the Labour party (who I have voted for all my life) have been of any relevance to me was the CROSS PARTY campaign re NI and abortion rights.

ellaoldie · 14/02/2018 21:51

Not Labour not Tory either.
I think now is the time to put aside political differences and get behind this.
Yes JJ was wrong but two wrongs don't make a right. No-one else has stuck their neck out and lead on this the way JJ has.

LassWiADelicateAir · 14/02/2018 21:55

Tbh the whole tone of the opening post from Surely no-one in the Scottish government believes that women don’t suffer as a result of our female bodies onwards loses me.

The point you (generic you) needs to get across is that there are aspects of life where for reasons of privacy , safety and dignity single sex spaces and the right to access individuals of the same biological sex. The aspects of privacy and dignity apply to men.

You are talking in the language of The Guardian except it will no longer support you. You (generic you) need to address the readers of The Telegraph, The Mail, the Sun, the Spectator, Spiked etc.

They are not stupid but I don't think they are interested in ploughing through reams of feminist speak going on about the patriarchy. Sorry but it is right of centre men, Rod Liddle, Brendan O'Neill, Ben Shapiro who get the point across in a succinct way to people who otherwise would not care or be interested.

JaimesGoldenHand · 14/02/2018 21:56

Hmm. Following with reservations. Party identity seems to matter too much - I'm just concerned about this particular issue. I want to support the cause but I don't want to see that diluted by having to adore Corbyn.

thebewilderness · 14/02/2018 22:02

I continue to ask.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

whitehandledkitchenknife · 14/02/2018 22:05

This is without doubt, the biggest, most important single issue in my lifetime. It needs a strong, singular response from women of all political persuasions and none. We are more than capable of challenging this by focusing on women. Gender critical people must feel able to come together to fight, without the fear of party political distractions. Practical and strategic heads are needed. Let's focus on centring women.
All women.

MargeH · 14/02/2018 22:07

Excuse me for being cynical, but what makes you think that if Corbyn/Momentum agree to do a U-turn on this issue, thereby regaining their female supporters votes, that they wont renege on it further down the line? They've shown their true colours on this.

Please don't be suckered into giving your vote to people who deep down clearly have no genuine understanding or respect for the female sex.

fishdogpancakes · 14/02/2018 22:14

I'm with you MargeH. The trust has been shattered and like the proverbial mirror glass the cracks will always be there.

JJ is too politically welded to JC for me to participate and I'm gutted about that. This is too important for any Party to claim as their own idea now, it has to be a movement for all women however they vote.

fishdogpancakes · 14/02/2018 22:18

Katherina Here you are;

twitter.com/msjenniferjames/status/963223321587474432

Everyonematters · 14/02/2018 22:21

This is without doubt, the biggest, most important single issue in my lifetime. It needs a strong, singular response from women of all political persuasions and none.

This. Whatever you think of Jennifer James (and if it wasn't for her a lot of the world wouldn't know about this issue, and I can see it really matters to her as well as her other political beliefs.)

We need someone to pull together cross-party voices on this. To make this fly in the media we need a non political, decent, honest, non flappable mum from mumsnet, who is prepared to speak out.

Needs to be someone who has a grasp of the issues and can get their point across in a way people will understand. Needs to not get angry in the face of TRA bullshit. Needs to have compassion but see what's going on and call it.

fishdogpancakes · 14/02/2018 22:22

twitter.com/msjenniferjames/status/963223321587474432

Everyonematters · 14/02/2018 22:22

Am not suggesting this should be JJ. In fact it cannot be JJ.

fishdogpancakes · 14/02/2018 22:23

Tallulah is one poster I'd happily follow,

Everyonematters · 14/02/2018 22:24

But she is right to suggest we pull together a mumsnet voice, and to offer support in amplifying it.

This cause is too important not to do this.